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JoeHall
09-24-2017, 10:46 AM
I plan to adjust the doors again for the 63GT, and am tired of making do with whatever I can find to loosen & tighten the huge Phillips head screws that hold the hinges in place on the doors. I have scoured ebay, and find nothing that looks suitable. Does anyone know where to find a bit large enough for this job, probably about a #5 or #6?. Preferably something of high quality, such as Snap-On, but I will go with whatever I can find.

Thanks,
Joe H

tsenecal
09-24-2017, 10:56 AM
I used a # 4 from Mac tools. It seemed to be the right size, but others with more knowledge can correct me, if wrong.

COMMANDERPINK1
09-24-2017, 10:58 AM
I would suggest finding a tool distributor like Mac, Matco or Snap-On. On my Larks I've used a #4 and some worked better with a Pozi-drive bit.
Tom

JoeHall
09-24-2017, 11:14 AM
Looks like the largest Snap-On and Sears make is #4, so that must be the size. I was thinking it was a little bigger. I used to have a 1/2" drive bit that was perfect for the job, but it wore out years ago. Would love to find the same tool, preferably in Snap-on or Sears.

Treblig
09-24-2017, 11:42 AM
If you don't use an impact driver you stand a good chance of rounding out the head of the screw.

Treblig

64V-K7
09-24-2017, 11:56 AM
Yes, totally agree, an Impact driver AND some red Lok-Tite

53k
09-24-2017, 12:36 PM
I plan to adjust the doors again for the 63GT, and am tired of making do with whatever I can find to loosen & tighten the huge Phillips head screws that hold the hinges in place on the doors. I have scoured ebay, and find nothing that looks suitable. Does anyone know where to find a bit large enough for this job, probably about a #5 or #6?. Preferably something of high quality, such as Snap-On, but I will go with whatever I can find.

Thanks,
Joe H
This is what you need- a genuine Studebaker factory door hinge screw driver.

DieselJim
09-24-2017, 12:46 PM
Yes, totally agree, an Impact driver AND some red Lok-Tite
A dab of valve lapping compound on the phillips bit will also work.

E. Davis
09-24-2017, 01:21 PM
My old craftsman impact driver comes with a #4 bit which looks like a fit for the door hinge screws. You probably need an impact driver for the job anyway. My set is old and american made and I would guess the new ones are chinese as most of the new craftsman tools are and not worth buying. Maybe someone you know has an old set to loan.

JoeHall
09-24-2017, 01:34 PM
I have went through several of the Chinese impact drivers over the years. Have also drilled those hinge screws all the way through, then installed a 5/16" shank bolt through the remaining cone. That avoided future problems, since the Phillips head then becomes a 1/2' hex head bolt. Was just hoping to do it a little easier this time around. The screws should not be rusted in place, since I had both doors off for a paint job about 3-4 years ago.

When they were off for the paint job, I replaced the original screws with repro screws, from one of our vendors. But on closer inspection this morning, I find those screw heads are actually, "posidrive", which is similar to Phillips, but different. So that explains why the #4 Phillips was a little loose, and probably why I (obviously) did not get them tightened enough 3-4 years ago.

Once I knew what I was looking for, shopping on ebay became a little easier. A few minutes ago, off ebay, I bought a set of Apex/posidrive bits, including size #4. So will see what shows up in the mail.

Thanks much for everyone's help.
Joe H

Skip Lackie
09-24-2017, 05:38 PM
Just for the record, Snap-On used to (and I think still does) sell #4 Phillips and Posi-Drive bits that fit into a 5/16" (I think) socket. One of them is specifically designed to remove stuck screws, and has little teeth built into one side of each tooth on the business end of the bit. You use it only for removal.

JoeHall
09-24-2017, 05:48 PM
Skip, I believe you are describing a posidrive bit. Here is what I learned today from wikipedia:

Pozidriv[edit]
Screw Head - Pozidrive.svg

Screws with the Pozidriv head.
The Pozidriv (sometimes spelled incorrectly as "Pozidrive") is an improved version of the Phillips screw drive, and is specified as ANSI Type IA Cross Recess. Pozidriv was jointly patented by the Phillips Screw Company and American Screw Company. The name is thought[by whom?] to be a portmanteau of the words "positive" and "drive." Its advantage over Phillips drives is its decreased likelihood to cam out, which allows greater torque to be applied.[6][20][21][22] In ANSI standards, it is referred to as "Type IA".[16] It is very similar to, and essentially compatible with, the Supadriv screw drive.[23]

Pozidriv drive bits are often designated by the letters "PZ" plus a size code of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 (by order of increasing size);[6] the numerical bit size codes do not necessarily correspond to nominal screw size numbers.

Attempting to use a Phillips screwdriver bit is likely to cause damage because the design difference between them is fairly significant even though at first glance they appear to be very similar.[6] A Phillips driver has an angle on the flanks, a pointed tip and rounded corners. The Pozidriv screwdrivers have straight sided flanks, a blunt tip and additional smaller ribs at 45° to the main slots.[6] The Pozidriv was designed specifically to allow much greater torque to be applied because of its more positive engagement.[6]

The Pozidriv screws are visually distinguishable from Phillips by a set of radial indentations (or "tick marks") set at 45° from the main cross recess on the head of the screw.[6] The manufacturing process for Pozidriv screwdriver bits is slightly more complex. The Phillips driver has four simple slots cut into it, whereas in the Pozidriv each slot is the result of two machining processes at right angles. The result of this is that the arms of the cross are parallel-sided with the Pozidriv, and tapered with the Phillips.[20]

The chief disadvantage of Pozidriv screws is that they are visually quite similar to Phillips; thus many people are unaware of the difference or do not own the correct drivers for them, and often use an incorrect screwdriver. This results in difficulty with removing the screw and damage to the recess or driver, often rendering any subsequent use of a correct screwdriver unsatisfactory. Phillips screwdrivers will loosely fit in and turn Pozidriv screws, but will cam out if enough torque is applied, potentially damaging the screw head or driver. Because the drive wings on a Pozidriv screwdriver are square edged, their fit in a Phillips screw head is even worse, so they are more likely to slip or tear out the screw head.[6]

JoeHall
09-24-2017, 05:52 PM
I now know, the screws I received from one of our vendors are, in fact, Pozidriv screws, since they have the identifying, "radial indentations" described above. Hopefully, the bits coming in the mail will deal with them properly.

rockne10
09-24-2017, 06:22 PM
... some worked better with a Pozi-drive bit.Joe,
Hopefully the bits are Posi-drive, not simply Phillips.
Those screws are, in fact, Posi-drive screws! And using a standard Phillips drive is a sure way to render them soon unusable. Once that posi-drive is worn out of them there is almost no way to get them tight enough to hold the weight of a door. Here is one example of where the correct tool is the one for the job.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/finehomebuilding.s3.tauntoncloud.com/app/uploads/2016/04/09113924/021254038-phillips.jpg

jclary
09-24-2017, 07:38 PM
It has now been quite a few years since I sold them, but for these kinds of tool bits, the APEX brand was always the best. There are others, but APEX had the best quality control in terms of tool steel quality and the key..."Heat Treat." I sold these in bulk to industrial manufacturing facilities. Dozens of boxes at the time to furniture manufacturers. Once, when their workers went on strike, we substituted the so-called second best brand. It was a disaster. For a couple of weeks, I had to take back and credit more of this type of drive bit than ever before, or after in my career.

So...if they supply the size needed...look for an industrial distributor like "Ferguson Enterprises," or Dillon Supply, and see if they offer "walk-in" counter sales. If so, it is well worth the effort.

Skip Lackie
09-25-2017, 03:40 PM
Skip, I believe you are describing a posidrive bit. Here is what I learned today from wikipedia:

Pozidriv[edit]
Screw Head - Pozidrive.svg

Screws with the Pozidriv head.
The Pozidriv (sometimes spelled incorrectly as "Pozidrive") is an improved version of the Phillips screw drive, and is specified as ANSI Type IA Cross Recess. Pozidriv was jointly patented by the Phillips Screw Company and American Screw Company. The name is thought[by whom?] to be a portmanteau of the words "positive" and "drive." Its advantage over Phillips drives is its decreased likelihood to cam out, which allows greater torque to be applied.[6][20][21][22] In ANSI standards, it is referred to as "Type IA".[16] It is very similar to, and essentially compatible with, the Supadriv screw drive.[23]

Pozidriv drive bits are often designated by the letters "PZ" plus a size code of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 (by order of increasing size);[6] the numerical bit size codes do not necessarily correspond to nominal screw size numbers.

Attempting to use a Phillips screwdriver bit is likely to cause damage because the design difference between them is fairly significant even though at first glance they appear to be very similar.[6] A Phillips driver has an angle on the flanks, a pointed tip and rounded corners. The Pozidriv screwdrivers have straight sided flanks, a blunt tip and additional smaller ribs at 45° to the main slots.[6] The Pozidriv was designed specifically to allow much greater torque to be applied because of its more positive engagement.[6]

The Pozidriv screws are visually distinguishable from Phillips by a set of radial indentations (or "tick marks") set at 45° from the main cross recess on the head of the screw.[6] The manufacturing process for Pozidriv screwdriver bits is slightly more complex. The Phillips driver has four simple slots cut into it, whereas in the Pozidriv each slot is the result of two machining processes at right angles. The result of this is that the arms of the cross are parallel-sided with the Pozidriv, and tapered with the Phillips.[20]

The chief disadvantage of Pozidriv screws is that they are visually quite similar to Phillips; thus many people are unaware of the difference or do not own the correct drivers for them, and often use an incorrect screwdriver. This results in difficulty with removing the screw and damage to the recess or driver, often rendering any subsequent use of a correct screwdriver unsatisfactory. Phillips screwdrivers will loosely fit in and turn Pozidriv screws, but will cam out if enough torque is applied, potentially damaging the screw head or driver. Because the drive wings on a Pozidriv screwdriver are square edged, their fit in a Phillips screw head is even worse, so they are more likely to slip or tear out the screw head.[6]

Joe-
My Snap-On catalog shows they make "anti-camout" bits for both Phillips and Pozidriv screws. They come as either installer and remover types, in sizes #1-3. No #4. I used the #3 Phillips remover (#SDM263RA) on my C cab truck door hinges. It got all but a couple of the bottom ones out intact.

I understand that the new screws you bought were Pozidriv, but the screws on my truck that weren't standard slotted were/are Phillips.

JoeHall
09-25-2017, 06:27 PM
Joe-
My Snap-On catalog shows they make "anti-camout" bits for both Phillips and Pozidriv screws. They come as either installer and remover types, in sizes #1-3. No #4. I used the #3 Phillips remover (#SDM263RA) on my C cab truck door hinges. It got all but a couple of the bottom ones out intact.

I understand that the new screws you bought were Pozidriv, but the screws on my truck that weren't standard slotted were/are Phillips.

Skip,
I too, have never seen a Pozidriv screw, as stock on a Studebaker. It seems our vendors may be doing us a favor with the Pozidriv screws, but it would be helpful if they also offered the correct tools to install/remove them. Or at least tell that we will need to procure said tool somewhere else. Per Wikipedia, Phillips and Pozidriv are different, and not to be confused, as in right tool for the right screw. If our vendors offered said tools, they could make a bit more money, and it would be a win-win for us all.

With this experience, I have learned something new, and am looking forward to the Apex/Pozidriv bits, from ebay, to arrive in the mail. If need be, it is nice to know Snap-On has a bail out, with their special tool.
Thanks Much,
Joe H

Jeff_H
09-25-2017, 06:38 PM
I wonder if Studebaker changed from Phillips to these Pozidrive screws at some point? Somewhere I have a few used screws and maybe even broken ones off my '53 that were original and also a few of the NOS ones from the N&A bins I got about 1998 or so. I want to say the original ones don't have these extra marks on them compared to the NOS ones that are probably from late production leftovers. Would need to find this stuff and look though.

showbizkid
09-25-2017, 07:16 PM
I wonder if Studebaker changed from Phillips to these Pozidrive screws at some point? Somewhere I have a few used screws and maybe even broken ones off my '53 that were original and also a few of the NOS ones from the N&A bins I got about 1998 or so. I want to say the original ones don't have these extra marks on them compared to the NOS ones that are probably from late production leftovers. Would need to find this stuff and look though.

Highly unlikely. Pozidriv was not actually invented by Phillips; it was patented in 1966 in U.K. Patent 1,006,509 given to G.K.N. Fasteners Ltd. of Birmingham, England, and was not given a US patent until 1981 (US 4464957 A, also assigned to GKN). I doubt that Studebaker would have adopted this brand-new British fastener in their final year of production.

Paul Keller
09-29-2017, 05:55 PM
Also had difficulty w/the door hinge "Phillips" screws when repainting the '63 Hawk. After drilling and using a screw remover tool, the screws were replaced w/ allen head screws from a full line hardware supply office - Less likely to be a problem in the future if needed to remove.

PaulTK

1953champcoupe
09-29-2017, 09:55 PM
I am replacing the floor in my 53 Coupe and part of that is removing the bottom hinge screw so I can use the repair piece from Classic Enterprises. I use the #4 bit with the "socket" from my hammer powered impact driver but..........I welded a cutoff 3/8 drive extension to an air chisel tool, plus used the balance of the cut off extension as a handle, the vibration on the air chisel seems to loosen the rusty screw (that I have heated and squirted with Frees All) the last one came out pretty quickly from an extremely rusted A pillar. Sorry, no picture handy. The picture shows what the pillar looked like on the reverse side

63 R2 Hawk
09-29-2017, 10:10 PM
I replaced the screws that are hidden behind the door panel with SS socket head flathead screws and some anti-sieze.
I had to buy a box, nobody sold them in smaller quantities. I think I may stll have some if you can use them.

JoeHall
09-29-2017, 11:03 PM
I received the APEX brand PoziDriv bits in the mail today, and am eager to try them out tomorrow. I tried one in a spare, vendor provided PoziDriv door screw today, and the #4 bit, which is largest they make, fits it loosely. I believe it will do the trick, but at this point, am not sure what kinda bastard size screws these may be. I paid 39.95 for the set of bits, and that would buy a lot of hex head bolts. If I have any problems, I will just swap the PoziDriv screws over to hex head bolts, and be done with it. What a PITA !

stude dude
09-30-2017, 12:31 AM
The Stude door hinge screws are not Pozidriv, they just look similar. A large Phillips with a hex on the shaft is the only tool that should be used. It often helps to blunt the tip of the drives as they will bottom out in the screw.

Chris.

Ron Dame
09-30-2017, 07:32 AM
I'm going to have the joy of pulling a door off of the Avanti to replace the hinge pin, I wonder what kind of joy it will be with fiberglass? Will a frozen screw cause me to wreck fiberglass? Heat will be out of the question.

63 R2 Hawk
09-30-2017, 08:59 AM
I had some rusted hinge pin screws on another old car that someone else had rounded out all the screw heads. I bought an M44 cobalt reverse twist drill slightly smaller than the ID of the nut plate threads. Using a heavy duty drill, I was able to extract most of the screws just by allowing the reverse bit to bite into the damaged screw head, heat it up a little in the process and easily unwind the screw. A couple of them had to be completely drilled out and have a thread tap run through them but it was a pretty easy process.

JoeHall
09-30-2017, 12:29 PM
The Stude door hinge screws are not Pozidriv, they just look similar. A large Phillips with a hex on the shaft is the only tool that should be used. It often helps to blunt the tip of the drives as they will bottom out in the screw.

Chris.

You are correct, but the subject screws here are not OEM, rather they are the ones our vendors began selling several ago. They are, indeed, Pozidriv, but appear to be a size too big, for the largest Pozidriv bit available (#4). Looks like they would be a size #5, if such were available, but it is not. Perhaps size #5 is available for military, or some other special application, but I have not found it. Also, the threads do not fit as they should on these screws; they are too tight, almost as if metric, and close but no cigar. Looks like the ones I installed in this car, a few years ago, are about to be tossed. Will decide later today.

Corvanti
09-30-2017, 03:04 PM
I'm going to have the joy of pulling a door off of the Avanti to replace the hinge pin, I wonder what kind of joy it will be with fiberglass? Will a frozen screw cause me to wreck fiberglass? Heat will be out of the question.

i had to loosen the screws on the '63 Avanti drivers side door for adjustment. i sprayed the heck out of them with PB Blaster, waited overnight and got 'em loose with a old Craftsman #3 phillips screwdriver with a loud pop.

as Mr. Vines states: your results may vary.;)

stude dude
10-01-2017, 03:24 AM
You are correct, but the subject screws here are not OEM, rather they are the ones our vendors began selling several ago. They are, indeed, Pozidriv, but appear to be a size too big, for the largest Pozidriv bit available (#4). Looks like they would be a size #5, if such were available, but it is not. Perhaps size #5 is available for military, or some other special application, but I have not found it. Also, the threads do not fit as they should on these screws; they are too tight, almost as if metric, and close but no cigar. Looks like the ones I installed in this car, a few years ago, are about to be tossed. Will decide later today.

Ok that's interesting, I should have read through the above posts more carefully.... If you can't find anything locally, we have a good supply of N.O.S. 2046X7 Door screws (1" length) for $2 ea US plus postage. We also have the flat headed screws that go in the centre of each hinge pocket, plus a variety of new/used screws in some longer lengths.

Chris.

Skip Lackie
10-01-2017, 07:59 AM
You are correct, but the subject screws here are not OEM, rather they are the ones our vendors began selling several ago. They are, indeed, Pozidriv, but appear to be a size too big, for the largest Pozidriv bit available (#4). Looks like they would be a size #5, if such were available, but it is not. Perhaps size #5 is available for military, or some other special application, but I have not found it. Also, the threads do not fit as they should on these screws; they are too tight, almost as if metric, and close but no cigar. Looks like the ones I installed in this car, a few years ago, are about to be tossed. Will decide later today.

That is distressing. Will be interested to learn what they really are and why they don't seem to fit right.

Ross
10-01-2017, 12:00 PM
Skip the hammer driven impact driver. Get a good #4 Phillips bit with a 3/8" square drive. Use it with an impact gun set on medium pressure and push in firmly as you pull the trigger. I have had terrific success with this.

55s
10-03-2017, 03:16 PM
If only Mr. Ford had listened to his workers (who loved them in when they were tested in the 1920s) and paid a little more for the much superior Canadian-patented Robertson headed screws none of the frustration with worn Phillips screw heads would have happened over many decades of car repairs!