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drrotor
08-28-2017, 12:18 AM
Well. I thought it might be time to post a little update on the rare '56 Golden hawk I bought a few months ago. I posted it in an earlier thread that kind of went off track so I figured I'd start over and try to keep this thread updated as I make progress on the car. As a refresher, this Golden Hawk was found in a barn in the Tacoma area some years ago, and appears to have been sold originally with a very rare combination of desirable options: Manual Transmission with O.D., Power Steering, and Dual 4 Barrel Carburetors. Here are some pictures of the car as found:66525665266652766528

Since then, it's been cleaned up some and brought home :)6652966530Yippee!
I am now knee deep in building the engine for it--er-- him ("Elbert"-- named after my late Hot Rod Uncle). This is going to be a fun build!

drrotor
08-28-2017, 12:29 AM
Recently I was very lucky to find a NOS "Service Replacement Fitted Block Assembly" to build my 374 cubic inch monster for Elbert.665316653266533
It still had the original "Packard" strapping holding it onto the original shipping pallet,66534and it made me sad to have to cut it-- it was so cool! Today I got the engine mounted on the stand and carefully knocked out the pistons, after cleaning the cosmolineout of the cylinders. I was pleasantly surprised to find that they came with piston rings, as well!665356653666537
Interestingly, the block has a casting date on it from just 2 days more than 62 years ago today.

drrotor
08-28-2017, 01:07 AM
Last week I tore down a core 352 from another Golden Hawk to get the heads, rods, cam, etc. out of to build my 374. 66538I sent most of the internals down to my local (very good) machine shop in Renton (Pacific Auto Machine, in business for decades), and I took the camshaft to Delta Cams in Tacoma to have it ground. Now, I am building this car to be a full-blown "Jet-Streak" Golden Hawk, with all the correct internals from the period, as well as some upgrades for performance and longevity. The Factory (Studebaker) had designed and engineered the "Jet Streak" as a high-performance option, but never made cars equipped that way available for sale. They did, however, make the package available as a dealer-installed accessory. Here's some really cool historical documents a friend turned me on to. They are prints of the original factory microfilms? of the complete parts list, by part number, of all the components. XXXXX

Aw, Rats! the forum says "The file is too large" so the best I can do right now is post the only known picture of the Factory Prototype Jet Streak Golden Hawk.66539
I've got to figure out a way to post those. They're really neat, and very informative.
Well, anyway, I just got the cam back from Delta, where it's been ground to a special "Solid Lifter" grind based on the Studebaker/Isky collaboration. I found the Jet Streak cam specs with, I assume, Ed Iskenderian's scratching and doodling still on it. XXXXX
Oh, brother, here we go again. "File too large" Grrrr. OK, at least I can post a picture of the finished cam-- a lot of good that does...66540
So the engine will have Solid lifters, dual valve springs, and adjustable push rods, as was called for on the original parts list. I will try to get my wife Kathy, the computer whiz, to help me post the charts for you all to see in the coming days.

drrotor
08-28-2017, 01:12 AM
The correct Jet-Streak dual carburetor intake system is now done for the car, with the proper carburetors, linkage, air filters, valley pan, choke tubing, etc. etc.66541I also found the ultra cool "Senior Packard" chrome valve covers for it, and just sent them out to be re-chromed.66542All the proper parts are beginning to trickle in-- very fun and exciting!

j.byrd
08-28-2017, 01:41 AM
Very neat car ! Can't wait to hear how this big rascal runs !

StudeRich
08-28-2017, 02:30 AM
The best way I can describe this Kenny, is: THE most straight forward modification I can think of, this Car was totally ASKING for this! :!:

The best of ALL Worlds, a beautiful well designed Studebaker, a Senior PACKARD 374 V8, 3 Speed H.D. T-85 3 Speed Overdrive, Dual Quads and EVEN a Performance grind Solid Lifter Cam! Awesome does not BEGIN to describe THIS. :cool:

At the next Car Show, probably the 2018 International Meet in Tacoma can I get a ride in it PLEASE, Please, pretty please?

t walgamuth
08-28-2017, 07:08 AM
That engine looks very clean.....and heavy!;)

tim333
08-28-2017, 08:03 AM
Where did you ever find an NOS block still crated??

nels
08-28-2017, 08:35 AM
Where did you ever find an NOS block still crated??

I remember those fitted 374 blocks at Herwick Iron in SB way back in the 70's. They were $65 each at the time.

jclary
08-28-2017, 09:44 AM
Great thread! I have enjoyed your progress thus far. Especially your enthusiasm.;):!:

I have an unrestored '55 President Coupe in my barn. It has only one carburetor, but the air cleaner looks exactly like the ones on your engine. I always thought of them as a "period" correct aftermarket (Western Auto ? replacement) Are they considered valuable now?:confused:

drrotor
08-28-2017, 10:32 AM
I believe those air cleaners were the same as the ones that came on mid-50's Corvettes with dual carburetors.

j.byrd
08-28-2017, 01:38 PM
Hey, I've wondered about these air "cleaners" too !

PackardV8
08-28-2017, 01:53 PM
Yes, a worthy project to build a '56J the way Studebaker-Packard should have.

The Jet Streak proposal parts list mentions a dual point distributor and special coil. What are your plans for this?

Iskenderian offered six different solid lifter cam grinds for the Packard V8. (Iskenderian kit numbers for Hi-Rev series are 800-CBK-E4, 800-CBK-P-55, 800-CBK-P-66, 800-CBK-505C.; for roller-lifter series are 840-RRK-RR-2 and 840-RRK-505T.) Which spec did you get from Delta?


They did, however, make the package available as a dealer-installed accessory.

Have we ever documented the S-P Parts Department ever shipping a Jet Streak package to a dealer? Agree, there are several '56Js with dealer-installed 374"s and/or with the Caribbean 2x4 intake setup, which would have come through the S-P Parts system, but any documentation as to the cam kit and distributor/coil coming through the S-P system?

Then, there's putting the power to the ground. You no doubt know that much torque will require the TwinTraction, traction bars, rear anti-roll bar and flanged axles; again, as S-P coulda/shoulda built it back in '56. Those parts were available, just never offered on a '56J.

Again, thanks for sharing this milestone build with us here on the forum.


jack vines

drrotor
08-28-2017, 05:19 PM
Yes, a worthy project to build a '56J the way Studebaker-Packard should have.

The Jet Streak proposal parts list mentions a dual point distributor and special coil. What are your plans for this?

Iskenderian offered six different solid lifter cam grinds for the Packard V8. (Iskenderian kit numbers for Hi-Rev series are 800-CBK-E4, 800-CBK-P-55, 800-CBK-P-66, 800-CBK-505C.; for roller-lifter series are 840-RRK-RR-2 and 840-RRK-505T.) Which spec did you get from Delta?



Have we ever documented the S-P Parts Department ever shipping a Jet Streak package to a dealer? Agree, there are several '56Js with dealer-installed 374"s and/or with the Caribbean 2x4 intake setup, which would have come through the S-P Parts system, but any documentation as to the cam kit and distributor/coil coming through the S-P system?

Then, there's putting the power to the ground. You no doubt know that much torque will require the TwinTraction, traction bars, rear anti-roll bar and flanged axles; again, as S-P coulda/shoulda built it back in '56. Those parts were available, just never offered on a '56J.

Again, thanks for sharing this milestone build with us here on the forum.


jack vines

Jack--Although I have located the proper dual-point distributor and correct coil, I may use electronic ignition. I haven't decided on this yet.
The Isky cam grind spec's I will post as soon as I can figure out how to post a picture of the document.
No, I haven't as of yet uncovered a case of a complete kit being sold through S/P, but I am working on it. So far, I have traced this car's history back to the '60's, and it has been so-equipped since then at least.
As far as putting all that power to the ground-- I don't intend to drag race it. That being said, I have a completely remanufactured rear end assembly that is built with all NOS parts, including a Twin-Traction differential with correct 3.92 gear ratio. I also have a rear sway bar assembly to install. Traction bars? We'll see...

bezhawk
08-28-2017, 08:08 PM
I wouldn't run the tapered axles even if all the parts are new. Do yourself a favor and put in the Mosier flanged axles. I love the way you re building it, but I would have kept the plain valve covers. I like to keep them guessing

S2Deluxe
08-28-2017, 08:22 PM
Well. I thought it might be time to post a little update on the rare '56 Golden hawk I bought a few months ago. I posted it in an earlier thread that kind of went off track so I figured I'd start over and try to keep this thread updated on the original engine, as I make progress on the car. As a refresher, this Golden Hawk was found in a barn in the Tacoma area some years ago, and appears to have been sold originally with a very rare combination of desirable options: Manual Transmission with O.D., Power Steering, and Dual 4 Barrel Carburetors. Here are some pictures of the car as found:66525665266652766528

Since then, it's been cleaned up some and brought home :)6652966530Yippee!
I am now knee deep in building the engine for it--er-- him ("Elbert"-- named after my late Hot Rod Uncle). This is going to be a fun build!

Hello Kenny,

Thank you so much for the updates! Please forgive my overwhelming curiosity? This is such a cool project your taking on! As I understand it, this is a '56 J you acquired a few months ago. With what appears to be a very early installation, of quite a bit of the factory proposed Jet Streak package. Installed on what I assume, is the original engine? Am I correct? Is it a 352" or a 274"? Does the block have a production order matching, stamped, K prefix, engine number? You've also posted pictures of an NOS 374" crate engine, you were able to acquire. Am I correct in assuming that, you chose to use this block, rather than the one that was in the car, to install all the components on, for the rebuilt engine you've posted pictures of? It looks like you're really doing, quite, a fantastic job with it! I don't think, I'm the only one here who very much appreciates every detail you've been willing to share? Keep it up and have as much Good luck with it, as possible!

Thanks,

Mark

PackardV8
08-28-2017, 09:21 PM
What shift mechanism are you planning to use? You mentioned you're not going to drag it, but a performance build seeks it's own level. Just my preference, but since the early '60s, I've converted every Stude I've owned to floor shift; the Stude column shift doesn't cooperate with a speed whoop. A Hurst Syncro-Loc is the all-time best.

jack vines

drrotor
08-29-2017, 12:35 AM
Well Jack, I was intending to use the stock linkage... some of it was missing, and was very hard to find all the replacement parts. I now have them all. However, the car was raced at some point earlier in it's life, because I found evidence of traction bars having been mounted on it before, as well as a hole in the floor where a floor shifter was previously! I kinda like the sleeper aspect of it looking all stock, but I'm always willing to listen. Does anyone have a Hurst Synchro-Lock available?

jpepper
08-29-2017, 09:23 AM
Back to the driveline in the car. You mentioned a TT unit being used. It is a Dana Power lock which is bolted together with 8 3/8" grade 8 bolts. With enough applied torque (which you will have), the separating force generated by the ramp on the pinion shafts will yield the bolts. The result is you then loose the bolts clamp force and the joint starts moving. The movement shears all 8 bolts. Don't ask how I know this. The original bolts have 120,000 PSI tensile strength. When I build one I use ARP fasteners which are 180,000 or 195,000 PSI (depending on part #) and the problem goes away. I have experienced this with Dana 44, Dana 60, Chrysler, and GM axles using a power lock. Change the bolts in yours. It is cheap insurance.

JoeHall
08-29-2017, 09:52 AM
As for floor shift v. column, it will probably speed shift quicker with a a good quality floor shift, and its a more natural motion of the arm to drop down to the floor shift, instead of coming up for column shift. However, the column shift can be restored to factory new shifting smoothness, if everything is properly cleaned, lubed and assembled. I have a column shift in the 62GT and the 56J, and they both shift as smoothly as they did when new, and the GT also has a T85 transmission, as does the 56J. I also had factory column shift in another 56Js of the past, which I drove about 10,000 miles, and it was factory smooth also. The only 56J I ever had with floor shift was in the late 1960s, in high school.

So granted, even if the column shift is working as new, a floor shift is more ergonomic, and quicker for most folks to shift. However, IMHO it crosses the line with a 56J, and destroys its original drive train. Also, old school traction bars will reduce wheel hop, but will also make it ride like a road wagon from the 1800s. So it depends on what you plan to do with the car. If planning to go farther than 1/4 mile at a time, I'd leave the traction bars off. If installing a floor shift, might as well go with GT bucket seats and console, and GT dash also, as that was a fairly common, "improvement" to earlier Hawks, as was the floor shift many folks installed back in the day.

drrotor
08-29-2017, 10:27 AM
My intention with this car is to build it as though you, as some random wealthy and influential Buyer (which I am not), could have walked into Frost and French in 1956 and order up this car with the parts, colors, and options available at the time. Whether through the assembly line in Vernon where this one was built, or whether through the parts department, this is the way it could have been built in '56. I may be wrong, but I doubt the floor shifter was available that early, and even if it was, I think I agree with you, Joe-- I like the "Period Feel" of the column shift.
Recently, I took my Daughter-in-Law for a ride in my '57 Transtar, and she was utterly charmed by the fact that the shifter was on the column. "That's SO COOL! she said.

PackardV8
08-29-2017, 11:09 AM
My intention with this car is to build it as though you, as some random wealthy and influential Buyer (which I am not), could have walked into Frost and French in 1956 and order up this car with the parts, colors, and options available at the time. Whether through the assembly line in Vernon where this one was built, or whether through the parts department, this is the way it could have been built in '56.

Agree, you are to be commended on staying true to your vision of the ideal '56J.


If installing a floor shift, might as well go with GT bucket seats and console, and GT dash also, as that was a fairly common, "improvement" to earlier Hawks,Joe points out the very slippery slope when one begins to modify/customize/improve from the OEM specs. One can always rationalize why it's better that way. When I began building my custom '55 E12, that was the same vision I had of using anything in the S-P parts system. Like your installing '56 Caribbean engine in your '56J, I'd always felt S-P should have offered the Packard V8 in the trucks, so I did that for them. However, you have more self-discipline than I had. There was no usable S-P power steering for the C-cab, so I cheated and used GM. There was a factory AC setup for the Packard V8, but again, I wimped and collaborated with Vintage Air in developing the C-cab system. Cruise control makes highway trips possible again. All these not-period-correct alterations makes for a better driver, just not the ultimate mid-'50s truck I envisioned S-P could have built.

Again, congrats on sharing a great '56J build.

jack vines

drrotor
08-30-2017, 12:00 AM
Today my awesome wife figured out a way to post these images of the camshaft and valve train documents from Studebaker's "Jet Streak" development process. The first one is the Jet Streak specific parts list that comprised the "Kit" available form the Studebaker Dealers66604
To me, this is very cool stuff to have found.
Next is the Isky supplied stuff that they engineered for Studebaker, with part numbers that are apparently no longer valid, at least to Isky... However, It does show that the jet Streak option did have Dual Valve springs to combat the tendency for valve float at high RPM's.66605
I was also fortunate to find the old drawings of the Jet Streak Solid-Lifter cam profile, which is the one I used to have Delta grind my new solid-lifter cam. This is a moderate performance grind, since Studebaker was engineering this to be a street-driven car. 66608
I found it interesting that it has valve to rocker clearances that have been changed from .022 to .015, but I agree, that's a better clearance.
I had a long phone conversation with Iskenderian today and they dug up some very old records. They did up several different cams for the big Packards back in the day, up to and including a roller cam! in 1956! They found all the part numbers for the Jet Streak Project valve springs, adjustable push rods, and spring retainers. Wow. They are all still available. They are as follows:
Push rods #803L 3/8 tube, no oil hole, 9.718 body length not including adjuster. They are intended to be used with 426 Hemi solid lifters.
Outer springs: #305D
Inner Springs: #906RH
Spring Retainer #3607ST These springs make a seat pressure of 125 Lbs. and an open pressure of 300 Lbs. but at a .448 lift (a more aggressive cam). I figure the open pressure at .410 lift might be 275-280 lbs. but that's a guess at this point. My opinion is that the stock rockers and shafts should be fit to handle these pressures no problem.
Pretty interesting stuff, all this. I have more cool information coming for you Packard/Golden Hawk junkies coming up in the coming days... :)

StudeRich
08-30-2017, 12:58 AM
Great Stuff Kenny, I wonder how long it will take Jack V. to build his own Hi-Perf Solid Lifter Packard Engine? :!:

Mrs K Corbin
08-30-2017, 07:10 AM
Just make sure you change to flanged axles in the rear.... You don't want a rear tire passing you.

PackardV8
08-30-2017, 11:28 AM
Great Stuff Kenny, I wonder how long it will take Jack V. to build his own Hi-Perf Solid Lifter Packard Engine? :!:

Rich, I've been building high performance solid lifter Packard engines for fifty years. This one uses the Isky solid roller Kenny mentions.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tDIOw-uS39bXw2TfEyXW8YEEEEWjtn2D-CAlQ-45huZdZzaFx06naCYx3SXuxpfMhOxzD6nmY581d1dhF6zoakB3PWo_thwxwJDog80OY7A6PYEFqcFX1o 0OVgersani8ExV9Q0cKjNF13cFzut6ZyPg6RU_x8ED-PvoyqUlrOVecEgpH3vZjALPkpJZUlbbqbBx9S53eDVURjEpadVoO52gmLQg6k14wE3V_8mHb5cFiNFQc rFl8z61BfHtYqrNspQa9NW6e2BH3aWdDg8qMgEFSXSIdh47KS0kaYCOz5oB10rFY6d2uSeuCg44ebAJU 3_fomQQdJ1fUaaJUW9veJbTE13-zyI7I6U-NRPyqAGm5TrBLF7QOrJdMuDB508b4cDHicyoETXvElsaWQJZR7hn9Ik90ryvnw-29cxGKfKWie5kIMTr5j27GiO7Id9Gqt4_IVtv8xZZqdP_qD-MAAUuzX0bmGGqC6nho5Pzpni2hnF-zDH2PRnhe5Af-z7shjIWsPnSR1xa9cYETizs2qj6rLMQy2LTbUzpm_YuXnOQdljx0hSmvH6-Rp2DcT5PnbcksmEky_eUx7wYNUkX8U_UFNz02ZzYxbcFv-h16MPmFA=w798-h598-no

And always enjoy seeing more builds such as Kenny's come on board.

FWIW, Isky still has the profiles for all the Packard cams and can regrind them. They don't have the springs, lifters or pushrods available any longer. Two of those cams were hard-face-overlay for racing only, built up by welding and Isky can't supply those. The E4 is the mildest of the cam options and didn't require dual valve springs, but it's K's build and he has his own plans.


They are intended to be used with 426 Hemi solid lifters.Very minor point, but the 426" hemi came along in '64 and uses a different lifter than the Packard V8 and Mopar early hemi.

jack vines

DougHolverson
08-30-2017, 12:53 PM
What kind of huffer is that?

j.byrd
08-30-2017, 01:14 PM
Looks like a Latham, but I've only seen them with side-draft carbs. Beautiful engine Mr. Vines !!!!

drew72mgb
08-30-2017, 01:35 PM
Being the history buff 'pack-rat' that I am, I would be saving a hunk of the strapping with the PACKARD clip on it - maybe framing it to hang on the wall, with highlight photos of the build.

drrotor
08-31-2017, 12:01 AM
Being the history buff 'pack-rat' that I am, I would be saving a hunk of the strapping with the PACKARD clip on it - maybe framing it to hang on the wall, with highlight photos of the build.

Great Idea. I had already saved the Packard Strapping-- it's hanging on my shop wall. :)

drrotor
08-31-2017, 12:27 AM
I might not be understanding what you're saying about the springs and pushrods no longer being available... I will say that the ones that were designed for the "Jet Streak" engine are in fact still available, and I ordered a set just this morning. The E4 cam is the one that was specified for this engine, as were the dual valve springs. Fortunately I don't have to be one of the smart ones that figured all this out-- all I have to do is find all the proper parts and assemble them correctly. As I mentioned earlier, I'm simply duplicating what Studebaker designed 60ish years ago. So I get all the fun without all the brain work!

drrotor
09-02-2017, 09:14 PM
So as I move on to updating the Oiling system in this 374, my own research shows me that there are a number of ways to upgrade, or should I say "things" to upgrade to cure the oiling issues of the Packard V8. I will post them as I acquire them. Many of you already know some of these, so ignore if it's old news, and correct me if I'm wrong.
Most would agree the single biggest (but not the "only-est") culprit is the oil pump in Packard and Studebaker applications. I have been told that in the Packard cars, the oil pump also has a vacuum pump attached to the bottom of the pump, and in the Studebakers, it's the same pump but without the vacuum pump, having just a flat plate on the bottom of the pump. The problem, as I understand it, is the although the pump works reasonably well when new, as it wears, it begins to "wobble" in it's bore, since the drive and driven shafts are only supported from the top. I know that Jack Vines, along with the help of others? has come up with an excellent adapter to install a more modern oil pump from an Oldsmobile V8, in either standard or hi-volume configurations. This I'm told works very well.
However, I believe there's another method of achieving the desired result. I have talked to a few Hudson and Nash people that all seem to agree their engines don't have this problem as much. Brent Hagen in Portland, Oregon, showed me that the "Hash" oil pump is completely different from the Packard one, is directly interchangable, and fits within the original oil pan. Here's a couple of comparative pictures of the Packard pump (the dirty one), and the Hash pump (the clean, new one)6671366714. You can see that the Hash pump has the drive and driven shafts extending through a cast iron bottom plate, instead of flat against the steel plate in the Packard pump. Here's an exploded view of the Hash pump from an old service manual. 66715 So this is the pump I intend to use. There are several more changes I'll be making to the oiling system, and I'll post them as I get pictures of the parts. Onward and Upward!

StudeRich
09-02-2017, 09:50 PM
/Cut/Most would agree the single biggest (but not the "only-est") culprit is the oil pump in Packard and Studebaker applications. I have been told that in the Packard cars, the oil pump also has a vacuum pump attached to the bottom of the pump, and in the Studebakers, it's the same pump but without the vacuum pump, having just a flat plate on the bottom of the pump./Cut/

WHERE did this come from Kenny? There has NEVER been a problem with the Studebaker Oil pumps that I have ever heard of! :eek:

Also wouldn't the Packard Engine have been developed early in 1954 completely at the Detroit Packard Corp. without any South Bend involvement, making it seem unlikely that the Stude. Pump is the same or similar to the Packard Pump? :confused:

JoeHall
09-02-2017, 09:52 PM
I'd probably give the Hash pump a try, or perhaps even better, have Jack provide a modified 56J pump, with the same, supportive bushings built into a thicker bottom plate. With that, I'd also go with the late 1956 upgrade, and install the ring under the cam gear, that only gives a dose of oil to the timing chain every 360 degrees, instead of constantly. Jack has reproduced those rings also.

PackardV8
09-02-2017, 10:20 PM
Also wouldn't the Packard Engine have been developed early in 1954 completely at the Detroit Packard Corp. without any South Bend involvement, making it seem unlikely that the Stude. Pump is the same or similar to the Packard Pump?

The oil pump fitted to the '56Js is the same body/gears/shaft as that fitted to the Packards. It just doesn't have the vacuum pump underneath.

I've modified the Packard pump with a taller bushing and a thicker bottom plate, eliminating the vacuum pump and I make and sell the conversion kit to adapt the Oldsmobile oil pump to the Packard V8.

As Joe mentioned, I also have available the second-design cam retainer plate and spacer.

jack vines

drrotor
09-02-2017, 10:40 PM
WHERE did this come from Kenny? There has NEVER been a problem with the Studebaker Oil pumps that I have ever heard of! :eek:

Also wouldn't the Packard Engine have been developed early in 1954 completely at the Detroit Packard Corp. without any South Bend involvement, making it seem unlikely that the Stude. Pump is the same or similar to the Packard Pump? :confused:

Rich-- My post clearly says I'm building a 374 engine-- the subject of the entire post. The "Packard and Studebaker applications (as compared to the Hudson and Nash applications)" are in reference to the Packard engines, 320, 352, and 374. Of course, I'm not even discussing the Studebaker-designed 224-232-259-289-304 engine family, which have no problems with their oil pumps!

StudeRich
09-03-2017, 12:42 AM
OK, so I guess the "Studebaker Applications" you mentioned, must apply to that one off model '56 "Studebaker" GH then.

drrotor
09-07-2017, 12:31 AM
Just received my Isky "Jet Streak" Dual Valve springs and spring retainers.66801Very glad to find that they are still available! Now I can finish the heads. I am also installing Packard valve spring oil deflectors, Bronze Valve Guides, Hardened Seats so I can run modern fuel, and Positive Valve Stem Seals. Doing my best to build a thoroughly modern Packard 374 :)

PackardV8
09-07-2017, 10:30 AM
If you haven't bought the bronze valve guides, I'd let you have at them at cost.

jack vines

drrotor
09-08-2017, 12:49 AM
If you haven't bought the bronze valve guides, I'd let you have at them at cost.

jack vines

Jack-- PM sent

drrotor
09-11-2017, 12:23 AM
So I think I am not going to use the Isky Dual valve springs after all. There seems to still be a missing piece of this puzzle-- namely-- which dual valve springs did Studebaker use on their prototype Jet Streak engine? The part numbers called out on their original microfiche don't have a correlation to Isky's current list of part numbers. The ones they sent me are certainly for a Packard V8, but are intended for racing applications. I tracked down this page from a '60's vintage Isky catalogue, and the cams listed here are more aggressive and higher-revving engines.66904These springs also would require machining away most of the valve guide boss, as the heads have no provision for dual valve springs as-is-- at least as supplied by Isky. Here are a couple of photos of the heads showing the stock Packard spring, the dual Isky springs (the two smaller ones), and the bare head showing the guide boss sticking up in which I hope you can see would not allow a smaller spring (much less dual smaller springs) to sit on the head.669056690666907In the last photo, you can see the Packard spring is much larger in diameter. Larger, in fact, than a Chevrolet 454 spring. Or any other spring I could find in the Crane Cams Catalogue. Sure, I could machine the heads and make the duals fit, but the spring pressure is very high (actually over 300 lbs. at full open) which could contribute to premature camshaft wear in a street application. The stock springs make 80 lbs. seat pressure, and 170 lbs. at full open. But by using Packard's late-production valve-spring oil baffles (.022 thick) and a 3 spring shims (.030 thick each) the Packard springs reach a seat pressure of 102 lbs. and, with this E4 cam, open pressure of 205 lbs. More than enough, I believe, to keep the valves from floating a 5500 RPM, the upper usable range of this cam. This is the thickest shim(s) that can be used without running out of spring clearance.
If any of you decide you want to shim your Packard valve springs, the shims are pretty obscure! My machine shop found a few old NOS ones in Texas, and according to a catalogue, they are for some kind of a Locomotive Starting Engine! And apparently no longer in production.

PackardV8
09-11-2017, 12:58 PM
In the last photo, you can see the Packard spring is much larger in diameter. Larger, in fact, than a Chevrolet 454 spring. Or any other spring I could find in the Crane Cams Catalogue.

Yes, over the years I've used Cadillac, big block Chevy, the single and dual Isky and even a diesel spring. They all require some modification to the guide boss.


But by using Packard's late-production valve-spring oil baffles (.022 thick) and a 3 spring shims (.030 thick each) the Packard springs reach a seat pressure of 102 lbs.

You'll want to confirm you have the later hardened valve spring retainers. The early unhardened retainers will allow the keeper to pull through the retainer and certain destruction follows when the valve drops through and hits the piston. Use a file; it will skate on the hard and cut the soft.


which dual valve springs did Studebaker use on their prototype Jet Streak engine? The part numbers called out on their original microfiche don't have a correlation to Isky's current list of part numbers.

Do we have any reference material that a prototype Jet Streak engine was actually built? The internal memo can be interpreted as a collection of Packard and Iskenderian part numbers which could be included if such a kit were approved and offered.

jack vines

drrotor
09-11-2017, 07:30 PM
Yes, Jack-- I have already procured the hardened spring retainers (NOS), and I'm using big block Chevy hardened spring keepers-- they are a direct fit.
Some of the evidence that Studebaker actually built the Jet Streak engine is the black-n-white photo of it provided earlier in this string. And by simple logic one would deduce that it had been built for them to have provided a list of the necessary parts to build another... I sincerely doubt they would have just taken a guess at what would fit and work... whether there was more than one prototype built may be forever lost in the mists of time.

drrotor
09-15-2017, 12:20 PM
What is this I found!?! If you don't follow Packard V8's, you may not know how rare this part is. This is an NOS Forged Steel Crankshaft. All stock Packards came with a cast steel crankshaft. The history of these forged units is a little murky, but various sources have told me they were made by Studebaker after the Packard engine plant had closed down. Why? As service replacement units? As high performance parts? Possibly engineered to be used in the Jet Streak engine option? Number made is also unknown to me, but some speculate it was less than a hundred. Very few are still known to exist, and this is probably the last NOS one in existence. In this photo you can see a cast crankshaft, easily distinguished by it's drilled, hollow rod journals67048just barely visible on the front journal in this photo. Conversely, the Forged crankshaft in these photos6704967050has solid rod journals. Since Studebaker had a forging plant where they made their own high-quality cranks, it would make sense that these were made there. Once again, it breaks my heart to open this museum-like box open to install this crank, but I don't know if there's a more worthy car to install it into. It's now at the machine shop to be balanced, along with all of the other rotating parts.
Brent Hagen in Portland, Ore. had this rare crankshaft squirreled away for many years, and I was finally able to convince him to liberate it from it's dark tomb... along with a healthy dose of cash, of course... and it will be running on genuine NOS bearings.

Jessie J.
09-18-2017, 12:32 AM
My suspicion is that the forged cranks were produced in response to the Packard V-8s notorious oiling problems, of course it would not have been an effective solution to the problem which turned out to be a poorly engineered air sucking oil pump.
BTW back in the '70s I had a 427 Ford HP oil pump that because of casting flaws and porosity exhibited the same symptoms, aeriated oil and rattling lifters.

PackardV8
09-18-2017, 12:47 PM
The various Packard and '56J groups have discussed the appearance of the forged crankshaft as a service part, but there is a complete lack of documentation as to why the change. Generally, a forging die is more expensive to produce than a casting mold. However, the Packard V8 cast crank had hollow journals, so that could have made it a wash as to cost. As far as is known, the forged crank was never installed in production engines.

Those buying forged cranks have to carefully check part numbers, as there were 320" forgings as well as 352"/374" forgings. The counterweights are different.



My suspicion is that the forged cranks were produced in response to the Packard V-8s notorious oiling problems,

That's, of course, a possibility. However, the forged crankshafts seem to have appeared some time after the Packard Engineering Department was long gone. There's no documentation that the OEM cast crankshaft was ever considered the cause of the oiling problems. The Packard Engineering Department knew the problem was in the oiling system and made changes to the hydraulic lifters, to the rocker arm oiling, to how the cam retainer plate and spacer metered oil to the cam chain, the addition of an oil pump pressure relief dump tube and finally, changes to the body casting and pressure relief valve itself.

FWIW, the oiling problems did often cause main bearing damage. It's common to open a Packard core engine and find standard bore, standard rod journals, but the main bearings to have been turned .010" or .020" undersize.

jack vines

drrotor
09-23-2017, 11:12 PM
Here is the Factory Service Bulletin from December, 195967340making the announcement of the availability of the Forged Crankshafts. This shows that the part number of the one I have is indeed correct for a 374 (or a 352). The fact that this bulletin is dated 12/59 would certainly make one believe they were made in South Bend to fill a shortage in new cranks available to Dealer's parts departments, at least in my way of thinking. They also make it clear there won't be many of them available...
Yesterday I brought home my Block from the machine shop. It's surprising how much work needed to be done to a NOS block to make it ready to assemble: fit the camshaft, as the bearings were too tight; install a missing plug in the oil gallery INSIDE the rear of the block 67341(where a novice might have easily missed it and built and installed the engine without it and had almost no oil pressure), install 3 other plugs at the back of the block and one in the R. side, re-hone the cylinders for proper cross-hatch, sand and de-bur the lifter bores to fit the new lifters, and steam-clean the block inside and out, as well as brush out the oil galleries to remove 60 years of dust etc.
Should be getting my crank, rods, pistons, etc. back from the balancing shop Monday or Tuesday and then assembly begins. Yay! Heads should also be done and ready to pick up in the next couple of days as well.

Dwain G.
09-23-2017, 11:55 PM
Raw crank forgings for Studebaker were made in Chicago by the Wyman-Gordon Co. Apparently this was mentioned somewhere in the Lamberti papers. Studebaker did the finish machining. This may have been the company that also did the Packard forgings.

JoeHall
09-24-2017, 11:28 AM
I do not see how a forged crank would counter the effects of lubrication problems, which many of the 55-56 Packard V8s. The 56J did not have as many problems with the oil pump as Packards anyway, since 56Js did not hang a vacuum pump off the end of the already wimpy bushed shaft. A forged crank would be nice, I suppose, but I have never had any problems with cast cranks in 56Js.

Any lubrication problems are easily addressed nowadays, and as mentioned above, there are several options.

S2Deluxe
09-24-2017, 05:29 PM
I do not see how a forged crank would counter the effects of lubrication problems, which many of the 55-56 Packard V8s. The 56J did not have as many problems with the oil pump as Packards anyway, since 56Js did not hang a vacuum pump off the end of the already wimpy bushed shaft. A forged crank would be nice, I suppose, but I have never had any problems with cast cranks in 56Js.

Any lubrication problems are easily addressed nowadays, and as mentioned above, there are several options.

Isn't it possible that what the forged cranks did something to address is the need of replacements for those that were damaged due to the oiling system inadequacies? I'm not sure it would have been the most cost effective method of manufacturing them but this is Studebaker-Packard were talking about?

Mark

Studebakercenteroforegon
09-24-2017, 07:46 PM
Back in the middle 1960s I hung around a bunch of Studebakers lovers. On of them was fond of 1956 Golden Hawks. I remember once he had four 352 engines torn apart and spread around his garage. His mission was to find the least worn crankshaft out of the four. They all looked pretty bad.

drrotor
09-25-2017, 12:11 AM
Back in the middle 1960s I hung around a bunch of Studebakers lovers. On of them was fond of 1956 Golden Hawks. I remember once he had four 352 engines torn apart and spread around his garage. His mission was to find the least worn crankshaft out of the four. They all looked pretty bad.

One of the reasons I'm spending the money and time to acquire the best parts available for this build is to assemble the highest quality engine possible with the greatest longevity and performance that can be achieved, using all the combined experience from the hard lessons learned over the last 60 years. I'm thankful for the knowledge shared by people here who've had to build and rebuild these engines over the years, perfecting them as they go. I believe this engine should outlast my ownership by a wide margin. And I really enjoy learning all the obscure facts so that I can try to become an expert myself!

GrumpyOne
09-25-2017, 12:49 AM
I remember those fitted 374 blocks at Herwick Iron in SB way back in the 70's. They were $65 each at the time.


$40 at Hurwich Iron in 1971...

JoeHall
09-25-2017, 07:52 AM
Back in the middle 1960s I hung around a bunch of Studebakers lovers. On of them was fond of 1956 Golden Hawks. I remember once he had four 352 engines torn apart and spread around his garage. His mission was to find the least worn crankshaft out of the four. They all looked pretty bad.

When I recently built a replacement 352, for the 56J I have had since 1986, I had the old crank turned, and then swapped it over into the replacement motor. That crank went 30/30 for the regrind, but that's OK with me, since it now has around 240,000 miles on it. I have driven it a little over 160,000, and it had a little over 80,000 on it when I bought the car in 1986. Like I said, nothing wrong with cast cranks in the Packard V8 motor.

drrotor
09-30-2017, 09:56 PM
Newest update: Just completed the Short Block today67480. Terrific! Having a hard time getting a set of standard intake valves right at this moment, though... I have received two sets that are both wrong. One set were Exhaust valves sent by mistake, and the other set were about .060 too small in diameter across the face. Not sure what they're for... a 320 perhaps? They are the right stem length and stem diameter, just wrong across the face. No they aren't exhaust valves-- they are too big for that. So I will search some more on Monday. Interestingly, some suppliers say they'll call back with availability, but they don't. Waiting to see if Brent Hagen has any-- he's always "Jonny-on-it" whenever I call him and is definitely my go-to guy for '56J stuff.

PackardV8
09-30-2017, 10:18 PM
The smaller intakes you have are for the '55 engines.

I've got a set of NOS '56 intake valves still in the S-P wrappers and I'll swap them for your exhaust valves plus shipping.

jack vines

mbstude
10-01-2017, 07:59 AM
Have you tried Max Merritt's in Indiana?

Cowtown Commander
10-01-2017, 04:13 PM
Matt sent you a pm

drrotor
10-01-2017, 11:29 PM
The smaller intakes you have are for the '55 engines.

I've got a set of NOS '56 intake valves still in the S-P wrappers and I'll swap them for your exhaust valves plus shipping.

jack vines

Thanks Jack-- The supplier of the valves is sending the correct ones-- already on the way. Thanks again!

drrotor
10-01-2017, 11:36 PM
Matt sent you a pm

I did not receive a PM. To whom did you send one?

drrotor
10-21-2017, 01:01 AM
Cylinder heads now finished, with all kinds of special modifications. After a thorough cleaning and inspection, we installed new hardened valve seats for use with this pesky modern fuel, and installed bronze valve guides, which incidentally will make the installation of to new style positive valve stem seals possible. Here you see the machining procedure where we had to machine off part of the valve guide boss 67894to make room for the positive seals, which are pressed onto the bronze guides67899 that are now installed.67895 We then installed .090 shims under the valve springs to raise the spring pressure as discussed earlier. Those shims are very hard to find in that diameter. I was fortunate to find N.O.S. Packard valves as well, so everything is now brand new. Oh-- I also learned that most of the Packard engines came with soft spring retainers and soft valve spring keepers... Some later retainers were hardened and I sourced a set of those, and found that Big-Block Chevrolet keepers67898 are a perfect fit, so I installed a hardened set of those, as well.
Then my long-awaited custom-made set of adjustable push-rods finally came in from Isky6789667897 so now I can finish assembly of the engine. Will post good pictures of it completed, soon!

drrotor
10-27-2017, 11:52 PM
OK! Here we go! I've now completely finished the 374 for our Golden Hawk. It is turn-key ready for installation. Unfortunately, that won't be for awhile as I need to finish assembling our '59 Silver Hawk first. Just needs a paint job and then assembly-- I have all the parts to do it, just need time! I told my wife I'd stop on the GH until I finished the '59, so I will do just that.
I really need to recommend Brent Hagen Studebaker in Portland, Oregon to any of you that need Golden Hawk parts-- the guy really knows his stuff and almost always has what I need. Here's some pictures of the finished build, showing some more rare NOS stuff I got from Brent. Such as a complete NOS distributor including Tach drive...68091680926809368094and I don't know if you can see them in these pictures, but he even offers remanufactured (re-vulcanized) motor mounts which are almost impossible to find otherwise for '56 GH's. They are different from all other Studebakers. He also provided me with remanufactured Water Pump, Generator, Starter, Gaskets, (tough to get for a 374), and a remanufactured Harmonic Balancer. So here I've built the best engine I'm capable of, using almost all NOS parts, and modern seals, upgraded oiling, and modern valve-train parts. I hope if performs up to my expectations, which I admit are pretty high right now...

StudeRich
10-28-2017, 01:00 AM
If that baby does not REALLY SCREAM there is no reason why! :cool:

Excellent work Kenny on the research to learn about and get all the "Right Stuff" to build a even better Jet Streak. :!:

dleroux
01-17-2018, 05:01 PM
Kenny,
Any update? Just curious

drrotor
01-18-2018, 01:54 AM
I am collecting parts right now while I finish our ‘59 Silver Hawk. For the ‘56, I did just find a set of NOS Speedster front bumper fog lights which I will be installing instead of the front bumper guards... I think they look good INSTEAD of the guards rather than IN ADDITION to them. What do y’all think of them? I won’t be dissuaded, but I’m always curious.:)
I also will be pulling the T-85 transmission out to rebuild it next. I’ll be continuing on the mechanicals when the ‘59 goes to the paint shop (in a couple of months)

mbstude
01-18-2018, 07:52 AM
I am collecting parts right now while I finish our ‘59 Silver Hawk. For the ‘56, I did just find a set of NOS Speedster front bumper fog lights which I will be installing instead of the front bumper guards... I think they look good INSTEAD of the guards rather than IN ADDITION to them. What do y’all think of them? I won’t be dissuaded, but I’m always curious.:)


That’s what I did on my Conestoga. There’s a Speedster like that in north Florida and it looks much better with the fog lights in place of the regular guards. I really like them on the wagon too.


69817

8E45E
01-18-2018, 07:57 AM
For the ‘56, I did just find a set of NOS Speedster front bumper fog lights which I will be installing instead of the front bumper guards.

Don't forget to change the 6V 4012 sealed beams to 12V 4412 sealed beams!!

Craig

drrotor
01-19-2018, 01:28 AM
Don't forget to change the 6V 4012 sealed beams to 12V 4412 sealed beams!!

Craig
Yikes! I might have forgotten to think about that. Thanks for the reminder!

packard352
01-21-2018, 07:07 AM
What a great looking engine. I agree, Brent has been my 'go-to' guy if Stude Int'l don't have the parts and as Brent caters for the 56J, his knowledge is very valuable.
A couple of questions I'd like to ask...

Did you use the rope seal? And, what is the correct red engine paint? And, where did you buy it? I need to get a rattle can and hope to find a match in the UK.

Thanks, Richard

drrotor
01-23-2018, 01:15 AM
Richard— I did research and found that the rear main seal can be replaced with a late 1980’s Cadillac 2 piece neoprene seal. Fits perfectly. The front seal is now also a modern seal although I don’t recall what the application is at this moment. If you need to know I’ll look it up.
The engine paint we chose is a Chrysler red engine enamel and the brand was Dupli-color. I think it’s right on, and that Dupli-color rattle can is very high quality and sprays beautifully. Of course I can get you that can’s part number as well if you need it. There are a couple of different Chrysler reds, but the other one is pretty obviously wrong.
And thanks for the compliment!

packard352
01-25-2018, 11:08 AM
If it's not too much trouble to locate the information, then yes please on both counts.

My engines was rebuilt with the rope seal and I hate to see any oil drop on the floor.

Thank you very much... and look forward to seeing more progress photos as you work up the final assembly.
Richard

TWChamp
01-25-2018, 12:14 PM
I've replaced lots of rope seals on various car makes, and they never leaked. Buick was the last I know of to still use them.

drrotor
08-16-2018, 12:56 AM
Well it’s been quite awhile since I updated y’all on progress on Elbert (our ‘56 Golden Hawk) because I’ve been busy with elderly parents, kids, and two other Studebakers (our ‘59 Hawk and our ‘50 Land Cruiser). However, I have been chipping away at the edges...
The T-85 transmission is now done74822as well as the engine and the rear end. I also acquired a Turner disc brake kit for the front, but have not yet done anything on the steering or suspension. Since it’s a P.S. car, I will be adding quick steering arms and a bigger better sway bar. I’m thinking of using Dave Thiebault’s kit for the front... opinions? Anything cheaper that’s equally effective?
I also acquired a rear sway bar, not yet installed.
And I’m sure I’ll be ordering a traction bar kit too, to try to tame this 374 monster. S.I.? Thiebault? From where should I get it?

drrotor
08-18-2018, 01:11 AM
Been doing some work on interior. All upholstery is done and ready to install. The steering wheel was badly cracked, chunks missing, etc. so I called Shrock Bro’s. and hired them to recast the steering wheel. I asked them if they could do a custom color, which they agreed to. So I sent along a swatch of upholstery material along with the wheel. About 5-6 weeks later, this is what I received.7486474865Cool, huh!?! Is it just me, or is this the most beautiful steering wheel you ever saw? Don’t ask me how much it cost, I’m still recovering from the shock. (or should that be Shrock!). Those guys ain’t cheap, but they are certainly the best...
Oh, and they supplied matching shifter knob, turn signal knob, and door lock knobs.

mbstude
08-18-2018, 07:25 AM
Been doing some work on interior. All upholstery is done and ready to install. The steering wheel was badly cracked, chunks missing, etc. so I called Shrock Bro’s....

Looks good! I talked to them a couple of weeks ago and they’re doing a wheel for my ‘51 Land Cruiser. When I called, Tom said that the next day was going to be his 82nd birthday. The wheel on the LC is nice, but I went ahead and ordered a “spare” from them while they’re offering the service. I don’t know how much longer they’ll be doing steering wheels, but Tom said, “I would like to retire someday!”

A new wheel might be pricey, but they won’t be doing it forever.

PackardV8
08-18-2018, 12:45 PM
Your car, so you have to have the vision. One key decision area of building a performance '56J is whether to use a floor shifter. JMHO, but I have to have one. Joe Hall, who's driven the '56J more miles than anyone, doesn't feel the need.


have not yet done anything on the steering or suspension. Since it’s a P.S. car, I will be adding quick steering arms and a bigger better sway bar. I’m thinking of using Dave Thiebault’s kit for the front... opinions? Anything cheaper that’s equally effective? I also acquired a rear sway bar, not yet installed. And I’m sure I’ll be ordering a traction bar kit too, to try to tame this 374 monster. S.I.? Thiebault? From where should I get it?

Yes to the steering arms, front and rear anti-roll bars. Don't forget the heavy duty shocks. You'll want to reinforce the upper A-arm mounting area and inspect/reweld the entire front crossmember, as they crack.

As to the traction bars; those commercially available back in the day, i.e. Traction Master, mounted below the springs and to my eye, looked like crap. You might consider swapping to an Avanti rear end and adding the flanged axles; a must for a performance '56J. Then, it's easy to add the over-the-axle-and-out-of-sight OEM traction bars. Alternately, the traction bar brackets can be welded to any Stude rear.

jack vines