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jg61hawk
08-27-2017, 01:17 PM
Renewable Fuel Standard Program: Standards for 2018 and Biomass-Based Diesel Volume for 2019 (https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=EPA-HQ-OAR-2017-0091-0002) https://www.regulations.gov/images/clip_paper_icon.png


This link should bring you directly to the proposed rule (pretty far down) to increase ethanol levels. You can click on the COMMENT NOW button and have your say.

StudeRich
08-27-2017, 04:49 PM
What a lot of un-understandable mumbo jumbo, BS, I saw nothing about actual % Levels of Ethanol being Increased in actual Gasoline, it would appear they are LOWERING it! Clear as MUD! :mad:

I don't really BELIEVE That.

Under section 211 of the Clean Air Act, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is required to set renewable fuel percentage standards every year. This action proposes the annual percentage standards for cellulosic biofuel, biomass-based diesel, advanced biofuel, and total renewable fuel that apply to gasoline and diesel transportation fuel produced or imported in the year 2018. Relying on statutory waiver authority that is available when projected cellulosic biofuel production volumes are less than the applicable volume specified in the statute, the EPA is proposing volume requirements for cellulosic biofuel, advanced biofuel, and total renewable fuel that are below the statutory applicable volumes, and lower than the 2017 requirements. In this action, we are also proposing the applicable volume of biomass-based diesel for 2019.

jg61hawk
08-27-2017, 08:05 PM
1. EthanolEthanol is the most widely produced and consumed biofuel, both domestically and globally. Since the beginning of the RFS program, the total volume of renewable fuel produced and consumed in the United States has grown substantially each year, primarily due to the increased production and use of corn ethanol. However, the rate of growth in the supply of ethanol to the U.S. market has decreased in recent years as the gasoline market has become saturated with gasoline that contains 10 volume percent ethanol (E10), favorable blending economics have diminished, and efforts to expand the use of higher ethanol blends such as E15 and E85 have not been sufficient to maintain past growth rates in total ethanol supply. Although we believe that use of higher ethanol blends is growing and can continue to grow, the low number of retail stations selling these higher-level ethanol blends, along with poor price advantages compared to E10, and a limited number of flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs), among other considerations, represent challenges to the rate of growth of ethanol as a transportation fuel in the United States.
See this is what we have to comment on. They haven't said they are, NOR HAVE THEY SAID THEY ARE NOT, mandating more ethanol. I think we need to comment very simply why we don't want more alcohol based fuel...dry rubber, evaporation, vapor lock, boil levels...what ever you know more than me.

GrumpyOne
08-27-2017, 10:35 PM
What a lot of un-understandable mumbo jumbo, BS, I saw nothing about actual % Levels of Ethanol being Increased in actual Gasoline, it would appear they are LOWERING it! Clear as MUD! :mad:

I don't really BELIEVE That.

Under section 211 of the Clean Air Act, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is required to set renewable fuel percentage standards every year. This action proposes the annual percentage standards for cellulosic biofuel, biomass-based diesel, advanced biofuel, and total renewable fuel that apply to gasoline and diesel transportation fuel produced or imported in the year 2018. Relying on statutory waiver authority that is available when projected cellulosic biofuel production volumes are less than the applicable volume specified in the statute, the EPA is proposing volume requirements for cellulosic biofuel, advanced biofuel, and total renewable fuel that are below the statutory applicable volumes, and lower than the 2017 requirements. In this action, we are also proposing the applicable volume of biomass-based diesel for 2019.


Cellulosic biofuel simply means "corn" based/altered products. We don't need no steenkin' "advanced" products!

Hallabutt
08-28-2017, 03:59 AM
Anyone notice how the reasoning behind the idea ethanol has changed from an originating additive, which was supposed to help clean the air, to the idea of renewability? More efficient, less omitting cars, hybrid technology and electric cars seems to have, pretty much, watered down the original reason for it's mandated use. While the fact that the oil production boom has poised the US into becoming an oil exporter, seems to have completely negated any logical reason for renewability argument. Then there is the questionable pay back, when considering the amount of energy used to raise the corn, transport the corn and produce the alcohol for its production. The EPA must not be worrying about the world wide fight against hunger, either. Ain't it about time to reevaluate the whole concept of ethanol?

deco_droid
08-31-2017, 08:02 PM
What I have heard is that, due to new cars becoming more efficient, not to mention hybrid and electric cars reducing the amount of gasoline we use, the ethanol lobby is pushing for higher percentages, basically, because they are producing more ethanol than is needed/can be used, each year.

Unless the ethanol mandate can be changed/eliminated, 15% will be seen around the country. I have heard some stations in my area are already using it.

Mike Van Veghten
08-31-2017, 08:31 PM
I don't understand...what's the problem with gasoline/ethanol blend ?
Yea, it likes aluminum. That can be somewhat fixed when the % gets high enough.
I've already changed the fuel line in two of my three running cars so I don't have to worry about that...ever again, no mater the alcohol percentage.

With a coupla engine tweaks, your Stude engine can actually make more power than it does now, although, yea, the mileage may drop depending some on how you drive.
On the "good" side...vapor lock and overheating will be eliminated..!

So...we have two considerations, a mileage loss, and the "possible" need for some sort of modifier to eliminate corrosion.
Oh my, we may have to work on our fuel systems a little, drat...

Mike

StudeRich
08-31-2017, 08:50 PM
I don't get it Mike, if you have 15% Ethanol vs 10% is that not going to evaporate Faster, which will weaken the power and Octane, boil at a Lower point, cause MORE Vapor Lock?

And then there are the gasoline exposed Metal Parts that cannot be gotten in Stainless Steel, like your fancy Fuel Lines can: Gauge Sending Units, Fuel pump Parts, Carb. Parts, Gas Tanks.

lumpy
08-31-2017, 09:18 PM
The biggest problem with ethanol type fuel is that it attracts water as it sits... especially in our older cars with vented fuel tanks. THE LONGER YOUR VEHICLE SITS UNUSED AND UNDRIVEN THAT CRAP ATTRACTS WATER AND DESTROYS YOUR GAS TANKS AND CARBURETORS! If you use ethanol laced fuels ... DRIVE YOUR VEHICLE! dont let it sit unused, I have seen many stuck - bent intake valves due to bad ethanol laced fuel. It goes bad in 90 days or less .. DRIVE YOUR CARS!:!!:

Kato
09-01-2017, 07:22 AM
The biggest problem with ethanol type fuel is that it attracts water as it sits... especially in our older cars with vented fuel tanks. THE LONGER YOUR VEHICLE SITS UNUSED AND UNDRIVEN THAT CRAP ATTRACTS WATER AND DESTROYS YOUR GAS TANKS AND CARBURETORS! If you use ethanol laced fuels ... DRIVE YOUR VEHICLE! dont let it sit unused, I have seen many stuck - bent intake valves due to bad ethanol laced fuel. It goes bad in 90 days or less .. DRIVE YOUR CARS!:!!:

Does a good quality stabilizer help with this? :confused: We are fortunate here in Canada to have Shell Vpower 91 Octane with no ethanol but as was pointed out to me unless the pump is a dedicated to that fuel (which they are not) you will get a small amount of whatever fuel the previous customer used which is most likely a lower octane fuel with some ethanol. I'm wondering if I should be using a stabilizer year round, if it helps?

DEEPNHOCK
09-01-2017, 07:31 AM
And not one word about ZDDP..... Slackers....

Skip Lackie
09-01-2017, 08:44 AM
I don't understand...what's the problem with gasoline/ethanol blend ?
Yea, it likes aluminum. That can be somewhat fixed when the % gets high enough.
I've already changed the fuel line in two of my three running cars so I don't have to worry about that...ever again, no mater the alcohol percentage.

With a coupla engine tweaks, your Stude engine can actually make more power than it does now, although, yea, the mileage may drop depending some on how you drive.
On the "good" side...vapor lock and overheating will be eliminated..!

So...we have two considerations, a mileage loss, and the "possible" need for some sort of modifier to eliminate corrosion.
Oh my, we may have to work on our fuel systems a little, drat...

Mike

Mike-
I greatly respect your mechanical and specialized Studebaker knowledge, AND also your willingness to share that knowledge with the rest of us. But I really think you are assuming that the rest of us are in the your circumstances. Ethanol-laced gas might not be a problem for you, but it is for some of us. I can offer several reasons.

1.The oxygenated-fuel mandate was originally intended to force the use of MTBE, but was expanded to include other oxygenates, such as ethanol, to get the votes of mid-west corn state members of Congress. When MTBE was shown to be carcinogenic, ethanol was left as the only oxygenate standing. The ethanol industry used federal subsidies (tax money) to rapidly expand, but because new cars use less gas, now has too much capacity.
2. There is no proof that adding ethanol to gasoline reduces air pollution. There is also no proof that it doesn't. That's because the ethanol industry lobbyists have prevented the EPA from conducting an honest study of its value in cleaning up the air.
3. We don't all live in your climate. Although I don't live in the heart of the rust belt, we get enough snow, slush, and salt where I live that my old vehicles sit 4 or 5 months un-driven each winter. That is long enough that the winter-blend gasoline (which will be the only thing available after the end of September) will go stale. There is a reason that the instructions for my chains saws, weed-whacker, etc warn against using gas that is more than 30 days old. My older chain saw is now unusable because the plastic in the fuel system swelled up to the point that it won't run.
4. The proposed change in mandatory ethanol consumption is not based on any data that it will improve air quality anywhere. It is nothing more than a subsidy to the ethanol industry to make up for falling sales. Do we have a comparable requirement to use a certain amount of aluminum, steel, or beer? Industries making products should live with the consequences of the marketplace. Why should the rest of us buy more of their product when we don't need it?

Corvanti
09-01-2017, 02:35 PM
I'm wondering if I should be using a stabilizer year round, if it helps?

i use StaBil in the '51 if i have to use ethanol fuel and won't drive it enough to use quickly. also use it in my yard equipment after around 10 years ago the crap gas caused my chainsaw and weed eater to seize. it wasn't as well known about the problems as it is now.

here's my usual link to non ethanol gas stations in the US and Canada: https://www.pure-gas.org/

and for Jeff: yeah, i still use Shell Rotella for zinc, etc. in the '51.:)

lumpy
09-01-2017, 05:10 PM
As far as additives go I have used sta bil and lucas additives if i think one of my older vehicles will sit for a couple of months ,and I know some people use marvel mystery oil , I personally don't use it as I have seen it turn into little red goo balls inside the tank:eek: If you know its gonna sit for an extended period drain the tank and run the engine till it dies.

Kato
09-01-2017, 08:36 PM
here's my usual link to non ethanol gas stations in the US and Canada: https://www.pure-gas.org/



What a great app this is, very useful when straying away from home. Thanks for posting it!

HOXXOH
09-01-2017, 11:52 PM
Non-ethanol fuel is also available at marinas everywhere. You may have to transport it in your own container, since the pump locations aren't real automobile friendly. lol

Kurt
09-02-2017, 05:42 AM
Their do seem to be stations, at least in my area, that carry non ethanol gas in my part of the world. A few years ago that was not the case. I use straight gas in my small engines, old cars, and one old tractor. I can and have made ethanol work, but like others have said, you can't let it sit. As for the percentage in gas, the more the better. Corn is cheap. It sells for less than break even right now. The by products,called distillers grain, are used for animal feed. So you truly double up the value of each bushel of corn. My modern vehicles don't care and we are using resources produced at home.

53k
09-02-2017, 07:44 AM
...There is a reason that the instructions for my chains saws, weed-whacker, etc warn against using gas that is more than 30 days old. My older chain saw is now unusable because the plastic in the fuel system swelled up to the point that it won't run. ...

I can certainly echo Skip's experience with ethanol-laced fuels in small engines. For the past few years I have been fortunate enough to be able to buy "real" gasoline locally, but every small engine I have suffered problems before I switched. Cases in point- two Echo engines, one on a string trimmer and one on a Mantis tiller. Both suffered carburetor problems due to crumbling rubber gas lines. On the string trimmer the tank gas cap came apart (not easy to find a replacement for a 1983 engine). two Gravely tractors- carburetor clogs also from crumbling gas lines (which I did replace after the fact with ethanol resistant lines). Both tractors had gas caps that had floats that served as gas gauges. Both caps swelled to the point that they were unusable (couldn't take off or put back on). The Magnum 20 Kohler on one tractor has an aluminum carburetor. The ethanol gas eroded it to the point that the non-replaceable needle valve seat would no longer shut off fuel when the engine wasn't running. New carburetors priced at $225 are NLA even from the Kohler factory. So, I have to be careful to always shut off the fuel when turning off the engine. If I don't, the cylinders will fill with gasoline (on a Gravely the five gallon gas tank is higher than the rear engine so gasoline will flow by gravity). The gasoline also seeps in to the crankcase. I have had to drain the gasoline/oil mix at least a dozen times over the recent years, refill the oil and change the oil filter, all because I can't seem to remember to always shut off the gasoline. The only small engine I have that didn't seem to be bothered by the E-10 was my 1990 Stihl chainsaw (but it gets the "real" gas now too).

Another consideration- I don't know if "modern" cars would get better gas mileage with "real" gas or not, but one day when I was filling my gas cans with the 100% gasoline a man in an old Jeep Cherokee pulled in to the next pump and filled his tank with the "real" gas even though it was 20 cents a gallon more than the E-10 87 octane gas. He told me that he drives 25 miles to come to this station to fill up, but he said he gets enough better mileage to both justify the trip and paying the higher price.

Brazil has had a successful ethanol fuel program since the 1930s. At one point in the '80s all cars manufactured in Brazil were E100 capable. Yes, pure ethanol, but the ethanol is sugar cane based. But politics are involved there too. Even so, with Brazil's discovery of offshore oil, gasoline is still ethanol-laced at varying percentages and 100% ethanol is still sold at gas stations and it is considerably cheaper than gasoline. I took this rather poor picture of a Texaco station in Rio de Janerio. Alcool is 100% ethanol. There is an interesting read about this subject on Wikipedia- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

Flat Ernie
09-02-2017, 08:22 AM
Ethanol fuel is about politics and subsidies, not fuel economy or clean air. Period.

Alcohol has about half the BTU content of gasoline so you have to burn about twice as much alcohol as gasoline to produce the same power. It is difficult to understand how it could possibly increases MPG. Even if ethanol fuel is 10% cleaner, if you burn 15% more, you're still polluting more...so even the clean air argument is moot.

It's about subsidies. Nothing else.

And alcohol-free gas near me is always $0.75+ more, and always more expensive than premium. That's generally because of supply and demand...

tsenecal
09-02-2017, 10:06 AM
My wife drives a 2002 Toyota 4-runner. It runs alright on 10% ethanol, but in the summer, if the temperature gets over 90 degrees or so, the ethanol fuel "boils" in the tank. You can pull it into the garage after a drive in hot weather, and hear it boiling, (more so with the cap off) I started running non ethanol, and the problem went away. Google has a lot of information on the topic.

Dick Steinkamp
09-02-2017, 10:23 AM
Ethanol fuel is about politics and subsidies, not fuel economy or clean air. Period.

Alcohol has about half the BTU content of gasoline so you have to burn about twice as much alcohol as gasoline to produce the same power. It is difficult to understand how it could possibly increases MPG. Even if ethanol fuel is 10% cleaner, if you burn 15% more, you're still polluting more...so even the clean air argument is moot.

It's about subsidies. Nothing else.

And alcohol-free gas near me is always $0.75+ more, and always more expensive than premium. That's generally because of supply and demand...

Plenty of politics for sure. Pretty much big oil vs big agribusiness. :( .

BTW, we subsidize big oil with more taxpayer dollars than we do the ethanol industry (and more than all renewable energy sources combined).

A 2009 study by the Environmental Law Institute[29] assessed the size and structure of U.S. energy subsidies in 2002–08. The study estimated that subsidies to fossil fuel-based sources totaled about $72 billion over this period and subsidies to renewable fuel sources totaled $29 billion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies



Gasoline has 114,500 BTUs per gallon. Ethanol has 76,100. E10 (which is what is sold at most pumps) has 111,836 BTUs per gallon

http://www.hho4free.com/gasoline_vs_ethanol.html

2.3% fewer BTUs. I'm not sure you could measure the difference in fuel economy or performance in normal driving.


Plenty of downsides to ethanol laced gas...especially for our older cars. The biggest problem, however, is what to replace it with as an octane enhancer and oxygenator. Both lead and MTBE worked but were killing us doing it.

Dick Steinkamp
09-02-2017, 10:28 AM
My wife drives a 2002 Toyota 4-runner. It runs alright on 10% ethanol, but in the summer, if the temperature gets over 90 degrees or so, the ethanol fuel "boils" in the tank. You can pull it into the garage after a drive in hot weather, and hear it boiling, (more so with the cap off) I started running non ethanol, and the problem went away. Google has a lot of information on the topic.

The boiling point of gasoline is 102 F. The boiling point of Ethanol is 173F.

http://www.firehouse.com/article/10501825/ethanol-its-not-what-you-think-it-is-or-is-it-part-2

HOXXOH
09-02-2017, 06:38 PM
The boiling point of gasoline is 102 F. The boiling point of Ethanol is 173F.

http://www.firehouse.com/article/10501825/ethanol-its-not-what-you-think-it-is-or-is-it-part-2

That article only stated the minimum temperature for the boiling point, not the maximum temperature which is close to 400 F.

lumpy
09-02-2017, 10:05 PM
Hey Dick , I would like to see a truly honest boiling point comparison ... because here in CA ever since it was introduced it has induced hard start heat soaked conditions in most all classic vehicles . Some carbs way more prone than others..ie edelbrock and carter 4bbls. Let it sit 20-30 minutes on a hot day and its not gonna fire right off. This is not my Imagination lots of talk on line about this subject.

lumpy
09-02-2017, 10:24 PM
And is that e10 ,e15 e20 , or what blend ? or straight ethanol?

HOXXOH
09-03-2017, 01:00 AM
Hey Dick , I would like to see a truly honest boiling point comparison ... because here in CA ever since it was introduced it has induced hard start heat soaked conditions in most all classic vehicles . Some carbs way more prone than others..ie edelbrock and carter 4bbls. Let it sit 20-30 minutes on a hot day and its not gonna fire right off. This is not my Imagination lots of talk on line about this subject.

The boiling point is subject to change for several factors, including the additives, octane rating, and barometric pressure. The coefficient of thermal expansion also comes into play when discussing carbs. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cubical-expansion-coefficients-d_1262.html

tsenecal
09-03-2017, 09:48 AM
I originally posted about the 2002 4-runner. I used the term boiling, but maybe "percolate" or some other term would fit better. When you park the car, it sounds almost like the fuel pump is still running. The sound comes from the fuel tank, and is obviously louder with the cap off. I even disconnected the battery the first time that I heard it, thinking the pump had somehow stayed energized. This all went away with non-ethanol fuel. Google has a lot of Toyota owners with the same symptoms.

Dan Timberlake
09-03-2017, 12:05 PM
Brandy new Husqvarna power equipment is OK with E10, with reservations and restrictions.
http://www.husqvarna.com/us/forest/basics/ethanol-free-fuel/
More than E10 is forbidden. Granted, there may be some incentives ( their own premixed fuel ) and avoiding some warrantee claims.
"Ethanol is also an excellent solvent. Simply put, it will dissolve plastic, rubber, fiberglass and much more, potentially causing serious problems to small engines."

But I don't think the effects of the underlying chemistry are made up.