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5859
01-16-2008, 02:17 AM
This has probably already been brought to everyones attention, but I am reposting my take on it to keep it on our minds. In 2011 the epa intends to restrict the sale of all solvent based paints to only certified applicators with certified paint booths in place that will cost upwards of 100,000 dollars. This is an extremely important issue for all of us. Even if you have never or never intend to do an ounce of body or paint work yourself, it is extremely important that we all write and call in to voice our opposition to these new regulations. What do you think is going to happen to the price of a paint job at a body shop when they have cornered the market? It is going to go sky high. I have also heard that the body shop industry is lobbying strongly for these new regulations. It does not surprise me at all, as the EPA is just an organization that serves special interest only and really could not care less about the actual environment. The epa repealed regulations on the auto industry that said that 10 percent of all vehicles produced had to be zero emission vehicles by 2010 I believe, I may have the year wrong, under pressure from the strong auto manufacturers lobby. Tell me, does that sound like an organization that really cares about the environment? Not to mention the amount of particulate matter released by hobbyist painters is so small it can barely be registered in the grand scheme of things. It is extremely important that everyone writes in, two maybe three times to voice their opposition. All you guys out there that feel you are being priced out of the hobby and that it has turned into an elitists game, better get on the ball and write in too. This is your chance to actually be able to do something about the cost of things. What do you think the prices are going to be like when you can't paint yourself and it costs 6,000.00 for just a maco or earl schieb paint job. The epa's website is www.epa.gov Please take a little bit of your time and write just a few words voicing your opposition. This will most definitely not stop with just solvent based paints, it will no doubt eventually extend to water based paints, as they put particulate matter in to the air when sprayed. Not to mention the water based paints are good nowadays, very good in fact, but they are not as good and do not give as good a finish as solvent based. Just like current paints do not give as good of a finish, or hold up as well with uv exposure as lead based paints did. You won't be able to spray your car in the woods if you can't buy any paint for it. It also will not stop with just paint, but will likely extend in the future to include grinding and welding metal, as that releases particles and fumes, and operating or even owning an antique vehicle. Don't let them get their foot in the door.

556063
01-16-2008, 04:46 AM
I have written my Senators and Congressman expressing my objection to the paint ruling. The replies all indicated that this was no longer a legislative issue. The EPA has complete authority to do this without any checks or balances. Something to think about.

One Senator did compose a letter and include my name and about 10 other hobbyists and send it to the EPA administrator on our behalf. That's all he could do. The administrator replied, but did not commit either way in the response.

I know we aren't supposed to get political here, but I suggest those of us that vote do so with how the people we vote for look at the old car hobby in mind. Whether the rule is implemented or not in 2011 depends upon what kind of person is in charge of the EPA in 2011. I've done all I can as an individual to stop the nonsense, so whatever happens, happens now.

Kevin Wolford
Plymouth, IN

55 Champion
60 Lark VI Conv.
63 Avanti R1

556063
01-16-2008, 04:46 AM
I have written my Senators and Congressman expressing my objection to the paint ruling. The replies all indicated that this was no longer a legislative issue. The EPA has complete authority to do this without any checks or balances. Something to think about.

One Senator did compose a letter and include my name and about 10 other hobbyists and send it to the EPA administrator on our behalf. That's all he could do. The administrator replied, but did not commit either way in the response.

I know we aren't supposed to get political here, but I suggest those of us that vote do so with how the people we vote for look at the old car hobby in mind. Whether the rule is implemented or not in 2011 depends upon what kind of person is in charge of the EPA in 2011. I've done all I can as an individual to stop the nonsense, so whatever happens, happens now.

Kevin Wolford
Plymouth, IN

55 Champion
60 Lark VI Conv.
63 Avanti R1

bams50
01-16-2008, 04:50 AM
You are very correct[}:)]:( This may prove to be tough to overcome, but CAN be done; and you are correct- this is the fight of anyone who will ever need any paint work done on a car- collector or everyday car- which means EVERY ONE OF US.

We all need to research and learn this subject, and actively stand up against this insanity!

I'll continue to do whatever I can in this fight; but I am also currently researching paint booths, and will be putting one in my old car shop by then[B)]

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

bams50
01-16-2008, 04:50 AM
You are very correct[}:)]:( This may prove to be tough to overcome, but CAN be done; and you are correct- this is the fight of anyone who will ever need any paint work done on a car- collector or everyday car- which means EVERY ONE OF US.

We all need to research and learn this subject, and actively stand up against this insanity!

I'll continue to do whatever I can in this fight; but I am also currently researching paint booths, and will be putting one in my old car shop by then[B)]

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

bondobilly
01-16-2008, 09:48 AM
I believe I have stated this before, but will repeat it. There are many body shops in and around the NY area who do excellent work, and do not have what you or the EPA would call "spray booths". Of those that do, and that I am familiar with, yes, they paint the cars in he booths' if they have them.

But they do a lot of primer and touch up spraying outside their booths.

Westchester County in NY State has outlawed the sale of any professional spray paints, but anyone who needs paint can and does takes a 20 min drive to the next county up the road and can purchase all needed paints, solvents and hardeners. Another ramification of this law in Westchester is that all body shops now have their own paint mixing rooms, where they do the color matcing and mixing on site.

Not to play devilis advocate but putting modern paints in the hands of folks who have no idea how toxic isocyantes are is dangerous. Many of us have learned how to paint, and have taken the proper steps needed to limit or remove any exposure to our neighbors of these chemistries, but what about those who have no sense or reguard for their neigbor or themselves.

The big issue here is rather than educating the public or hobbyist on the use of these paints, iit is much easier to legislate against them.

I doubt the paint companies will fight this legislation, which in the long run might prevent them from lawsuits.

But what would the ramifications be if if someone who built up a tolorance for isocyantes walked past your property and had a reaction to the chemistry? Not only would you be liable for a lawauit, so would the paint manufacturer. The conatiners say for sale only to properly trained professionals.

However, as with everything that is illegal to sell, I am sure that a supply network of autopaint will still exist even if this legislation is passed.

bondobilly
01-16-2008, 09:48 AM
I believe I have stated this before, but will repeat it. There are many body shops in and around the NY area who do excellent work, and do not have what you or the EPA would call "spray booths". Of those that do, and that I am familiar with, yes, they paint the cars in he booths' if they have them.

But they do a lot of primer and touch up spraying outside their booths.

Westchester County in NY State has outlawed the sale of any professional spray paints, but anyone who needs paint can and does takes a 20 min drive to the next county up the road and can purchase all needed paints, solvents and hardeners. Another ramification of this law in Westchester is that all body shops now have their own paint mixing rooms, where they do the color matcing and mixing on site.

Not to play devilis advocate but putting modern paints in the hands of folks who have no idea how toxic isocyantes are is dangerous. Many of us have learned how to paint, and have taken the proper steps needed to limit or remove any exposure to our neighbors of these chemistries, but what about those who have no sense or reguard for their neigbor or themselves.

The big issue here is rather than educating the public or hobbyist on the use of these paints, iit is much easier to legislate against them.

I doubt the paint companies will fight this legislation, which in the long run might prevent them from lawsuits.

But what would the ramifications be if if someone who built up a tolorance for isocyantes walked past your property and had a reaction to the chemistry? Not only would you be liable for a lawauit, so would the paint manufacturer. The conatiners say for sale only to properly trained professionals.

However, as with everything that is illegal to sell, I am sure that a supply network of autopaint will still exist even if this legislation is passed.

stutzdriver
01-16-2008, 09:08 PM
Is this the same regulation that was mentioned in the February issue of Hemmings Classic Car, page 6? If so, it refers to EPA-HQ-OAR-2005-0526. If you can get this to open, click on the PDF icon.

http://www.regulations.gov/search/search_results.jsp?css=0&N=0&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchall&Ne=2+8+11+8053+8054+8098+8074+8066+8084+8055&Ntt=oar-2005-0526-0001&sid=117858FCAF63

If not, search for it on the EPA website (what a nightmare!!) I have been told that this regulation does not apply to hobbyists painting 2 cars or less per year. It may or may not for now. In some jurisdictions, car painting has been illegal for many years.

stutzdriver
01-16-2008, 09:08 PM
Is this the same regulation that was mentioned in the February issue of Hemmings Classic Car, page 6? If so, it refers to EPA-HQ-OAR-2005-0526. If you can get this to open, click on the PDF icon.

http://www.regulations.gov/search/search_results.jsp?css=0&N=0&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchall&Ne=2+8+11+8053+8054+8098+8074+8066+8084+8055&Ntt=oar-2005-0526-0001&sid=117858FCAF63

If not, search for it on the EPA website (what a nightmare!!) I have been told that this regulation does not apply to hobbyists painting 2 cars or less per year. It may or may not for now. In some jurisdictions, car painting has been illegal for many years.

5859
01-17-2008, 02:58 AM
You are correct, this is the same regulations that are mentioned in Hemmings Classic car, there are already anti painting laws on the books that could apply to us if the epa feels like enforcing them, the 2011 issue will remove solvent based paint from the shelves, and you will not be able to buy it unless you have certified training and equipment. Thank you for posting the link, that particular link is for the regulations that they just signed in, apparently we can't do anything about that now, but we still need to write in on the 2011 issue and yes, I do agree it is a nightmare to search the epa website.

5859
01-17-2008, 02:58 AM
You are correct, this is the same regulations that are mentioned in Hemmings Classic car, there are already anti painting laws on the books that could apply to us if the epa feels like enforcing them, the 2011 issue will remove solvent based paint from the shelves, and you will not be able to buy it unless you have certified training and equipment. Thank you for posting the link, that particular link is for the regulations that they just signed in, apparently we can't do anything about that now, but we still need to write in on the 2011 issue and yes, I do agree it is a nightmare to search the epa website.

hank63
01-17-2008, 06:40 AM
We shouldn't be surprised about tighter restrictions for solvent based paints. Some of those solvents are down-right nasty. Some are classified as carcogenic and some can give you a splitting head ache in 10 minutes flat.
You should see the "Personal Protection" gear we have to use for icocyanide paints here in Oz. Not that I'm complaining, anything that can (or is suspected to) cause cancer deserves a lot of care. It's a learning process. As a young bloke, I (and everybody else) found that nothing cleaned off dirty oil and grease as well as "tri" (tri-chlor-ethylene I think it was called). We washed our hands in it. Seems the stuff is absorbed through the skin somehow, and we can't buy it anymore. Just as well, I think.
It's easy to say "we didn't know", but at least we didn't profit by making others use it. We just jeopardised our own health.
/H

hank63
01-17-2008, 06:40 AM
We shouldn't be surprised about tighter restrictions for solvent based paints. Some of those solvents are down-right nasty. Some are classified as carcogenic and some can give you a splitting head ache in 10 minutes flat.
You should see the "Personal Protection" gear we have to use for icocyanide paints here in Oz. Not that I'm complaining, anything that can (or is suspected to) cause cancer deserves a lot of care. It's a learning process. As a young bloke, I (and everybody else) found that nothing cleaned off dirty oil and grease as well as "tri" (tri-chlor-ethylene I think it was called). We washed our hands in it. Seems the stuff is absorbed through the skin somehow, and we can't buy it anymore. Just as well, I think.
It's easy to say "we didn't know", but at least we didn't profit by making others use it. We just jeopardised our own health.
/H

Commander51
01-17-2008, 07:52 AM
I am happy to leave the job of handling and applying modern coatings to professionals who are properly equipped to do the job. I realize that it may mean more expense for me when/if I ever repaint my oldies, and I can accept that. The last paint job I bought was well done by a highly-regarded one-man open air shop; but it turned out to be the last whole-car job the painter did. He got sick while working on my truck and after he 'recovered', limited himself to touch-ups before he 'retired' at about age 50.

I also expect that as a consequence of these regulations, development of water-based coatings will accelerate-- as it should in any event.



http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/gmail98/th_51CommanderState.jpg
51 Commander State Sedan
Butler PA

Commander51
01-17-2008, 07:52 AM
I am happy to leave the job of handling and applying modern coatings to professionals who are properly equipped to do the job. I realize that it may mean more expense for me when/if I ever repaint my oldies, and I can accept that. The last paint job I bought was well done by a highly-regarded one-man open air shop; but it turned out to be the last whole-car job the painter did. He got sick while working on my truck and after he 'recovered', limited himself to touch-ups before he 'retired' at about age 50.

I also expect that as a consequence of these regulations, development of water-based coatings will accelerate-- as it should in any event.



http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/gmail98/th_51CommanderState.jpg
51 Commander State Sedan
Butler PA

DEEPNHOCK
01-17-2008, 09:57 AM
While I do not look forward to any new rules that may restrict my passion for painting at home..........
I agree that the components in the modern paints are indeed dangerous, and when handled improperly, can pose a hazard.
I also agree that new rules will promote new alternatives, like water based paints.
I sort of miss the old lacquer buzz of old[}:)], and fear the new paint spray buzz[xx(]......
(But, maybe if you add some Vodka to the new water based paint?[:p])
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by Commander51


<snip for space>
I also expect that as a consequence of these regulations, development of water-based coatings will accelerate-- as it should in any event.

DEEPNHOCK
01-17-2008, 09:57 AM
While I do not look forward to any new rules that may restrict my passion for painting at home..........
I agree that the components in the modern paints are indeed dangerous, and when handled improperly, can pose a hazard.
I also agree that new rules will promote new alternatives, like water based paints.
I sort of miss the old lacquer buzz of old[}:)], and fear the new paint spray buzz[xx(]......
(But, maybe if you add some Vodka to the new water based paint?[:p])
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by Commander51


<snip for space>
I also expect that as a consequence of these regulations, development of water-based coatings will accelerate-- as it should in any event.

Dick Steinkamp
01-17-2008, 10:10 AM
I'm with Commander61 and Hank63. Vehicle paints are nasty things [xx(].Ask Jim Turner and others that do it for a living about the precautions that should be taken to even OPEN a can of paint...and the cost of the equipment that is needed to protect anybody handling it....let alone the cost of the needed downdraft paint booth to apply it correctly. It's actually amazing to me that the government even has to tell us not to do it without the proper equipment. Kind of like a law telling us not to drink Draino ;). Even with the law, of course, if you really want to, you can find a way to get the paint. You can also drink a can of Draino if you really want to.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/54%20starlight/HiResS2Dsig2.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
01-17-2008, 10:10 AM
I'm with Commander61 and Hank63. Vehicle paints are nasty things [xx(].Ask Jim Turner and others that do it for a living about the precautions that should be taken to even OPEN a can of paint...and the cost of the equipment that is needed to protect anybody handling it....let alone the cost of the needed downdraft paint booth to apply it correctly. It's actually amazing to me that the government even has to tell us not to do it without the proper equipment. Kind of like a law telling us not to drink Draino ;). Even with the law, of course, if you really want to, you can find a way to get the paint. You can also drink a can of Draino if you really want to.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/54%20starlight/HiResS2Dsig2.jpg

JDP
01-17-2008, 10:16 AM
According to my paint guy, the driving force behind the new rules is the professional shops. If you just spent a 100K on a paint booth and you see a guy moonlighting out of his garage and beating your prices, you'll pressure for enforcement. It's time to get close to your friendly paint store and body shops so you can still get paint down the road.
Most of my paint buys are a pint or less for touch up and they usually just give it to me, but if I need more, I'm sure I can work around the rules by having a body shop buddy get it for me.
If you think about it, the average hobbiest uses a lot more paint in rattle cans then in his spray gun, it's not like we paint a dozen cars a year.

JDP/Maryland
63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
spent to date $54664,75
64 R2 GT (Sid)
spent to date $62,839.60
63 Lark 2 door
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

JDP
01-17-2008, 10:16 AM
According to my paint guy, the driving force behind the new rules is the professional shops. If you just spent a 100K on a paint booth and you see a guy moonlighting out of his garage and beating your prices, you'll pressure for enforcement. It's time to get close to your friendly paint store and body shops so you can still get paint down the road.
Most of my paint buys are a pint or less for touch up and they usually just give it to me, but if I need more, I'm sure I can work around the rules by having a body shop buddy get it for me.
If you think about it, the average hobbiest uses a lot more paint in rattle cans then in his spray gun, it's not like we paint a dozen cars a year.

JDP/Maryland
63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
spent to date $54664,75
64 R2 GT (Sid)
spent to date $62,839.60
63 Lark 2 door
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

jnormanh
01-17-2008, 11:02 AM
Don't panic quite yet. It appears that hobbyists will be exempt -

"The final rule also clarifies that these standards do not apply to paint stripping and surface coating performed by individuals as part of a hobby, or for maintenance of their personal vehicles, possessions and property, or when these activities are performed for others without compensation."

jnormanh
01-17-2008, 11:02 AM
Don't panic quite yet. It appears that hobbyists will be exempt -

"The final rule also clarifies that these standards do not apply to paint stripping and surface coating performed by individuals as part of a hobby, or for maintenance of their personal vehicles, possessions and property, or when these activities are performed for others without compensation."

Dick Steinkamp
01-17-2008, 11:17 AM
quote:Originally posted by jnormanh

Don't panic quite yet. It appears that hobbyists will be exempt -


This may be even WORSE news. It means we can't get angry and mad!

[:o)]

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/54%20starlight/HiResS2Dsig2.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
01-17-2008, 11:17 AM
quote:Originally posted by jnormanh

Don't panic quite yet. It appears that hobbyists will be exempt -


This may be even WORSE news. It means we can't get angry and mad!

[:o)]

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/54%20starlight/HiResS2Dsig2.jpg

5859
01-17-2008, 02:47 PM
Dave, that makes me angry and mad that you are angry and mad! In all seriousness though the exemption for the hobbiest applies to the current set of anti painting regulations that have just been passed, it is my understanding that the 2011 regulations will have no exemptions period.

5859
01-17-2008, 02:47 PM
Dave, that makes me angry and mad that you are angry and mad! In all seriousness though the exemption for the hobbiest applies to the current set of anti painting regulations that have just been passed, it is my understanding that the 2011 regulations will have no exemptions period.

jnormanh
01-17-2008, 04:48 PM
You have to be careful about proposed regulations. It often happens that regs are proposed, everyone gets in a panic, and then the regs get modified in a common sense way before they are put into effect.

Let me give you just one example.

As of last Spring there were proposed OSHA regulations which would have essentially made it impossible for a retailer to store, display and sell ammunition. I'm a dedicated shotgunner, and participate on some sites related to shotgun target shooting. There was a great panic among many there, saying things like "OSHA will outlaw our sport in 30 days!!!"

It never happened, of course. Saner heads prevailed, as they nearly always do, and you can still buy shotgun shells in any WalMart.

Poroposed regs are just that - proposed. They're often written by very junior people at the agencies who have no practical appreciation of the situation, and they nearly always get revised later by the more senior and sensible people.

Maybe you remember the panic when R-12 freon was banned, and the tales that it would cost thousands of dollars to convert to R-134A. Well, I converted all of my cars, the cost was about $20 each. No big deal.

I spent most of my working life dealing with the EPA and OSHA, and in spite of all the panics, I always found those folks to be competent and sensible. It'll be the same way with paint. Yeah, paint formulations may change a bit, and there may be some small hoops to jump through, but ten years from now nobody will know the difference. JMHO.

jnormanh
01-17-2008, 04:48 PM
You have to be careful about proposed regulations. It often happens that regs are proposed, everyone gets in a panic, and then the regs get modified in a common sense way before they are put into effect.

Let me give you just one example.

As of last Spring there were proposed OSHA regulations which would have essentially made it impossible for a retailer to store, display and sell ammunition. I'm a dedicated shotgunner, and participate on some sites related to shotgun target shooting. There was a great panic among many there, saying things like "OSHA will outlaw our sport in 30 days!!!"

It never happened, of course. Saner heads prevailed, as they nearly always do, and you can still buy shotgun shells in any WalMart.

Poroposed regs are just that - proposed. They're often written by very junior people at the agencies who have no practical appreciation of the situation, and they nearly always get revised later by the more senior and sensible people.

Maybe you remember the panic when R-12 freon was banned, and the tales that it would cost thousands of dollars to convert to R-134A. Well, I converted all of my cars, the cost was about $20 each. No big deal.

I spent most of my working life dealing with the EPA and OSHA, and in spite of all the panics, I always found those folks to be competent and sensible. It'll be the same way with paint. Yeah, paint formulations may change a bit, and there may be some small hoops to jump through, but ten years from now nobody will know the difference. JMHO.

556063
01-17-2008, 05:28 PM
The hobbyist exemption was not part of the rule when I wrote my legislators about it a couple years ago. Maybe some of our voices were heard.

There was about a 3-5 year period where no refrigerant was easily available off the shelf to individuals after R-12 was banned. There were also plans to restrict R-134A even further, but thankfully those seem to have been scrapped. Things usually work out, but they might not have had there not been a forceful enough opposition.

Kevin Wolford
Plymouth, IN

55 Champion
60 Lark VI Conv.
63 Avanti R1

556063
01-17-2008, 05:28 PM
The hobbyist exemption was not part of the rule when I wrote my legislators about it a couple years ago. Maybe some of our voices were heard.

There was about a 3-5 year period where no refrigerant was easily available off the shelf to individuals after R-12 was banned. There were also plans to restrict R-134A even further, but thankfully those seem to have been scrapped. Things usually work out, but they might not have had there not been a forceful enough opposition.

Kevin Wolford
Plymouth, IN

55 Champion
60 Lark VI Conv.
63 Avanti R1

clarkwd
01-17-2008, 09:04 PM
re: Don't panic quite yet. It appears that hobbyists will be exempt
"The final rule also clarifies that these standards do not apply to paint stripping and surface coating performed by individuals as part of a hobby, or for maintenance of their personal vehicles, possessions and property, or when these activities are performed for others without compensation."

The URL above is the Sept 17 proposed rule and can be read in its beautiful entirety in the PDF. The note that hobbiests have gotten an exemption does not have a reference to any government rule. I read it on the AACA website and asked a month ago for someone to tell me where it came from and have not gotten a reply. Where is the official government statement on this exemption?

This rule does not hack me off as much as our collective failure to understand what was going on and the governments failure to communicate this to the people that were affected. Congress should keep busier working on baseball problems and leave the rest of the American public alone.
Bill Clark

clarkwd
01-17-2008, 09:04 PM
re: Don't panic quite yet. It appears that hobbyists will be exempt
"The final rule also clarifies that these standards do not apply to paint stripping and surface coating performed by individuals as part of a hobby, or for maintenance of their personal vehicles, possessions and property, or when these activities are performed for others without compensation."

The URL above is the Sept 17 proposed rule and can be read in its beautiful entirety in the PDF. The note that hobbiests have gotten an exemption does not have a reference to any government rule. I read it on the AACA website and asked a month ago for someone to tell me where it came from and have not gotten a reply. Where is the official government statement on this exemption?

This rule does not hack me off as much as our collective failure to understand what was going on and the governments failure to communicate this to the people that were affected. Congress should keep busier working on baseball problems and leave the rest of the American public alone.
Bill Clark

52 Ragtop
01-17-2008, 09:32 PM
All,
Yes the new paints are full of isocyanides and all kinds of bad "stuff" I buy NEW paint masks EVERY wek for my painters, in fact, we have 4 new ones in the supply room at all times. Beleive me, "we" as professional shops do not care about the hobbyist painting their car at home!
It's the "hack" shops that are rebuilding total loss wrecks and re selling them as a rebuilt and SAFE car, when they are not! There are many standards that MUST be followed when repairing a collision damaged vehicle. For instance, if we drill out 25 spot welds on a panel to replace it, we must put 25 spot welds back in. not 23, not 26, the "engineers" have designed modern cars to collapse in collisions, and the number of welds determine how that panel collapses.
I don't care if you do not want to spend the $$ at my shop to paint your "classic car", we are not set up for restoration work, and can't charge enough to make any money on doing restorations. My shop is set up to do collision work, we did just under 2.5 million in total sales last year, and my goals this year is to, increase business again. The faster we can get a can in the front door, and out the back door, the more money we make. I'm not trying to sound like a greedy SOB, but, there is no money in restorations!
The problem I have with an amature doing their own work, is everybody thinks: 1: plastic filler (bondo) will fix anything,(it won't, and it's not made to go on over 1/8" thick) 2: primer is waterproof (it's NOT)
As many of you know, I bought a 62 Daytona ragtop off eBay 4 years ago, "new Paint" well, after I pulled the body off the frame, cut the new rockers off, cut the floors, and pulled the body back together to get door gaps, and 3 years later I finished it. The guy I bought it from, welded in new floors, and did not bother to fit the doors. When he put it together, the door gaps were a good 1/2" tp 3/4", so to close the door gaps, he "bondo'd" up the weatherstrip channel on the 1/4!
If your going to do your own work, take a class and learn how to do it right.
The EPA comes after the bigger shops, they won't "jack" with a hobbyist, no offense, but, they want money and a lot of it! They would rather come visit me, and see if they can find out what I do with my hazardous waste, if my paint booths are up to snuff, I spent 12K cleaning them last year and replacing a control panel on one of them. Filters run about $600 every month, and since our booths are "bake ovens" our natural gas bill is approx. 5K a month.
BTW, most paint sores in the Indianapolis area will not sell to someone walking in off the street.

Jim

52 Ragtop
01-17-2008, 09:32 PM
All,
Yes the new paints are full of isocyanides and all kinds of bad "stuff" I buy NEW paint masks EVERY wek for my painters, in fact, we have 4 new ones in the supply room at all times. Beleive me, "we" as professional shops do not care about the hobbyist painting their car at home!
It's the "hack" shops that are rebuilding total loss wrecks and re selling them as a rebuilt and SAFE car, when they are not! There are many standards that MUST be followed when repairing a collision damaged vehicle. For instance, if we drill out 25 spot welds on a panel to replace it, we must put 25 spot welds back in. not 23, not 26, the "engineers" have designed modern cars to collapse in collisions, and the number of welds determine how that panel collapses.
I don't care if you do not want to spend the $$ at my shop to paint your "classic car", we are not set up for restoration work, and can't charge enough to make any money on doing restorations. My shop is set up to do collision work, we did just under 2.5 million in total sales last year, and my goals this year is to, increase business again. The faster we can get a can in the front door, and out the back door, the more money we make. I'm not trying to sound like a greedy SOB, but, there is no money in restorations!
The problem I have with an amature doing their own work, is everybody thinks: 1: plastic filler (bondo) will fix anything,(it won't, and it's not made to go on over 1/8" thick) 2: primer is waterproof (it's NOT)
As many of you know, I bought a 62 Daytona ragtop off eBay 4 years ago, "new Paint" well, after I pulled the body off the frame, cut the new rockers off, cut the floors, and pulled the body back together to get door gaps, and 3 years later I finished it. The guy I bought it from, welded in new floors, and did not bother to fit the doors. When he put it together, the door gaps were a good 1/2" tp 3/4", so to close the door gaps, he "bondo'd" up the weatherstrip channel on the 1/4!
If your going to do your own work, take a class and learn how to do it right.
The EPA comes after the bigger shops, they won't "jack" with a hobbyist, no offense, but, they want money and a lot of it! They would rather come visit me, and see if they can find out what I do with my hazardous waste, if my paint booths are up to snuff, I spent 12K cleaning them last year and replacing a control panel on one of them. Filters run about $600 every month, and since our booths are "bake ovens" our natural gas bill is approx. 5K a month.
BTW, most paint sores in the Indianapolis area will not sell to someone walking in off the street.

Jim

jnormanh
01-18-2008, 09:01 AM
"The URL above is the Sept 17 proposed rule and can be read in its beautiful entirety in the PDF. The note that hobbiests have gotten an exemption does not have a reference to any government rule. I read it on the AACA website and asked a month ago for someone to tell me where it came from and have not gotten a reply. Where is the official government statement on this exemption?"

clarkwd-

Here is the hobbyist exemption, right from the US Government, and dated Jan 9, 2008.

http://www.fedcenter.gov/Articles/index.cfm?id=8830&pge_id=1854

jnormanh
01-18-2008, 09:01 AM
"The URL above is the Sept 17 proposed rule and can be read in its beautiful entirety in the PDF. The note that hobbiests have gotten an exemption does not have a reference to any government rule. I read it on the AACA website and asked a month ago for someone to tell me where it came from and have not gotten a reply. Where is the official government statement on this exemption?"

clarkwd-

Here is the hobbyist exemption, right from the US Government, and dated Jan 9, 2008.

http://www.fedcenter.gov/Articles/index.cfm?id=8830&pge_id=1854

JRoberts
01-18-2008, 09:36 AM
quote:Originally posted by jnormanh

"The URL above is the Sept 17 proposed rule and can be read in its beautiful entirety in the PDF. The note that hobbiests have gotten an exemption does not have a reference to any government rule. I read it on the AACA website and asked a month ago for someone to tell me where it came from and have not gotten a reply. Where is the official government statement on this exemption?"

clarkwd-

Here is the hobbyist exemption, right from the US Government, and dated Jan 9, 2008.

http://www.fedcenter.gov/Articles/index.cfm?id=8830&pge_id=1854


Thanks for the link.
I still don't understand how an individual can paint his/her own vehicle under this exemption. It says you can paint it, but how can you do that if you can't buy the paint. The way I understand it, you can strip your car and rattle can paint it. What am I missing?

Joe Roberts
'61 R1 Champ
'65 Cruiser
Editor of "The Down Easterner"
Eastern North Carolina Chapter

JRoberts
01-18-2008, 09:36 AM
quote:Originally posted by jnormanh

"The URL above is the Sept 17 proposed rule and can be read in its beautiful entirety in the PDF. The note that hobbiests have gotten an exemption does not have a reference to any government rule. I read it on the AACA website and asked a month ago for someone to tell me where it came from and have not gotten a reply. Where is the official government statement on this exemption?"

clarkwd-

Here is the hobbyist exemption, right from the US Government, and dated Jan 9, 2008.

http://www.fedcenter.gov/Articles/index.cfm?id=8830&pge_id=1854


Thanks for the link.
I still don't understand how an individual can paint his/her own vehicle under this exemption. It says you can paint it, but how can you do that if you can't buy the paint. The way I understand it, you can strip your car and rattle can paint it. What am I missing?

Joe Roberts
'61 R1 Champ
'65 Cruiser
Editor of "The Down Easterner"
Eastern North Carolina Chapter

259man
01-18-2008, 11:35 AM
quote:Originally posted by JRoberts


quote:Originally posted by jnormanh

"The URL above is the Sept 17 proposed rule and can be read in its beautiful entirety in the PDF. The note that hobbiests have gotten an exemption does not have a reference to any government rule. I read it on the AACA website and asked a month ago for someone to tell me where it came from and have not gotten a reply. Where is the official government statement on this exemption?"

clarkwd-

Here is the hobbyist exemption, right from the US Government, and dated Jan 9, 2008.

http://www.fedcenter.gov/Articles/index.cfm?id=8830&pge_id=1854


Thanks for the link.
I still don't understand how an individual can paint his/her own vehicle under this exemption. It says you can paint it, but how can you do that if you can't buy the paint. The way I understand it, you can strip your car and rattle can paint it. What am I missing?

Joe Roberts
'61 R1 Champ
'65 Cruiser
Editor of "The Down Easterner"
Eastern North Carolina Chapter



I e-mailed Susan Lancey at the EPA a couple of weeks ago about this. Much to her credit, she responded to me within a few hours.

As has been mentioned earlier in this post, there is an exemption for hobbyists who paint no more than two cars per year. She referred me to the page in the regulation that provides for this exemption.

As far as a ban on the sale of automotive paint to the general public, she said "(t)he regulation does not limit the sale of autobody paints to licensed painters. I am unaware of such a regulation."

I hope she is unaware because there is no such regulation pending. I've heard 2011 mentioned several times as the "day of reckoning," but I would like to see the specific regulations or proposals to back this claim up.

And, yes, navigating the EPA's website is an absolute NIGHTMARE!!!!!



Tom
1960 Lark VIII
1962 Lark Cruiser

259man
01-18-2008, 11:35 AM
quote:Originally posted by JRoberts


quote:Originally posted by jnormanh

"The URL above is the Sept 17 proposed rule and can be read in its beautiful entirety in the PDF. The note that hobbiests have gotten an exemption does not have a reference to any government rule. I read it on the AACA website and asked a month ago for someone to tell me where it came from and have not gotten a reply. Where is the official government statement on this exemption?"

clarkwd-

Here is the hobbyist exemption, right from the US Government, and dated Jan 9, 2008.

http://www.fedcenter.gov/Articles/index.cfm?id=8830&pge_id=1854


Thanks for the link.
I still don't understand how an individual can paint his/her own vehicle under this exemption. It says you can paint it, but how can you do that if you can't buy the paint. The way I understand it, you can strip your car and rattle can paint it. What am I missing?

Joe Roberts
'61 R1 Champ
'65 Cruiser
Editor of "The Down Easterner"
Eastern North Carolina Chapter



I e-mailed Susan Lancey at the EPA a couple of weeks ago about this. Much to her credit, she responded to me within a few hours.

As has been mentioned earlier in this post, there is an exemption for hobbyists who paint no more than two cars per year. She referred me to the page in the regulation that provides for this exemption.

As far as a ban on the sale of automotive paint to the general public, she said "(t)he regulation does not limit the sale of autobody paints to licensed painters. I am unaware of such a regulation."

I hope she is unaware because there is no such regulation pending. I've heard 2011 mentioned several times as the "day of reckoning," but I would like to see the specific regulations or proposals to back this claim up.

And, yes, navigating the EPA's website is an absolute NIGHTMARE!!!!!



Tom
1960 Lark VIII
1962 Lark Cruiser

countryboy
01-18-2008, 11:50 AM
I just pulled the 26 page Federal Registry report, and one has to be a Rocket Scientist to read and understand that thing. At least my Body man's wife has a photographic memory, and maybe she can read this thing and explain the fine details of it. No way will I try to read this report, but from first glance it looks like a two man body shop will be out of business if they even attempt to adhere to the rulings given. My body shop has a paint booth, but I don't know if it will meet the requirements asked for in this ruling. All that is left for the painting of my 50 Champion is the hood and deck lid, so maybe I had better get those two items painted, before the Govment comes in there and closes down his shop.
Possibly another case where two people are out on the streets looking for a job, and one of the finest body shops in North Carolina bites the dust.

countryboy
01-18-2008, 11:50 AM
I just pulled the 26 page Federal Registry report, and one has to be a Rocket Scientist to read and understand that thing. At least my Body man's wife has a photographic memory, and maybe she can read this thing and explain the fine details of it. No way will I try to read this report, but from first glance it looks like a two man body shop will be out of business if they even attempt to adhere to the rulings given. My body shop has a paint booth, but I don't know if it will meet the requirements asked for in this ruling. All that is left for the painting of my 50 Champion is the hood and deck lid, so maybe I had better get those two items painted, before the Govment comes in there and closes down his shop.
Possibly another case where two people are out on the streets looking for a job, and one of the finest body shops in North Carolina bites the dust.

jnormanh
01-18-2008, 12:04 PM
I think Susan Lancey has told you the truth; there is no ban on the sale of paint to hobbyists, at least in Federal regulations. There may be some state regs, as in CA.

As you learned, the folks at EPA can be helpful if you only ask them.

jnormanh
01-18-2008, 12:04 PM
I think Susan Lancey has told you the truth; there is no ban on the sale of paint to hobbyists, at least in Federal regulations. There may be some state regs, as in CA.

As you learned, the folks at EPA can be helpful if you only ask them.

JDP
01-18-2008, 06:02 PM
I could not have written a fairer exception myself. The two car per year standard is more then fair.

JDP/Maryland
63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
spent to date $54664,75
64 R2 GT (Sid)
spent to date $62,839.60
63 Lark 2 door
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

JDP
01-18-2008, 06:02 PM
I could not have written a fairer exception myself. The two car per year standard is more then fair.

JDP/Maryland
63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
spent to date $54664,75
64 R2 GT (Sid)
spent to date $62,839.60
63 Lark 2 door
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

5859
01-18-2008, 07:58 PM
Everyone, please if you do nothing else, read and understand my post. There are two diferen't regulations we are talking about here. The first one is already in effect, that is the one that includes the exemptions for hobiests. The second one is a new regulation that has not gone into effect yet, the EPA is still gathering information on it. This is the one that will ban the sale of solvent based paint to hobiests and everyone else that is not certified and also has certified equipment. I think from reading the above responses, a lot of you are combining the two into one and thinking that the dangerous one (the 2011 ban of paint sales) will carry an exemption. It will not. This is the one we need to protest.

5859
01-18-2008, 07:58 PM
Everyone, please if you do nothing else, read and understand my post. There are two diferen't regulations we are talking about here. The first one is already in effect, that is the one that includes the exemptions for hobiests. The second one is a new regulation that has not gone into effect yet, the EPA is still gathering information on it. This is the one that will ban the sale of solvent based paint to hobiests and everyone else that is not certified and also has certified equipment. I think from reading the above responses, a lot of you are combining the two into one and thinking that the dangerous one (the 2011 ban of paint sales) will carry an exemption. It will not. This is the one we need to protest.