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3x2stude
07-19-2017, 11:28 PM
Over on the racing site I have a post on adapter plates to install a small block Chevrolet intakes on a Stude V8. If you are interested in a set check it out. I have completed the final aluminum prototype. I am going to order 10 sets soon and 6 are spoken for. If you are interested PM me here or on the racing site. Read the whole post to understand what they are and to get the pricing. I am not the first one to make these but probably the first to have them made on a 5-axis CNC machine.65767

JK

DEEPNHOCK
07-20-2017, 10:07 AM
They look great, Jon.
You even went the extra mile and added value by installing stainless thread inserts from the beginning.
Nicely done!

swvalcon
07-21-2017, 04:12 PM
I could see where these would be very use full if someone wanted to install a blower on a stude motor. Chev intakes are easy to find for this.

bob40
07-21-2017, 05:09 PM
That was my first thought. Blower intake.

Mike Van Veghten
07-21-2017, 07:56 PM
Actually anyone with more than just a good tune-up in their engine.
Well, a little more than that. If one has a set of ported heads (that have been done well, the stock intake cannot keep up. That's one thing the Stude engineers did very well...matched the stock cam, stock heads and intake manifolds (4 barrel carb.) flow very closely to each other.

So, with an R2 or R2+ cam, ported heads, the stock intake manifold is a choke point. One of the Chevy Performer style intake manifolds will go a long way toward evening the flow capability's of the intake system.
Then if you have more head porting, or more cam, the manifold again needs matching to that system.

Mike

SilverHawkDan
07-22-2017, 01:34 AM
Our Bonneville car will have a set of these with a Kinsler Port Fuel Injection system with a Pro Charger and ice water intercooler. Using these plates will save a lot of money over having a custom manifold made. We should be able to provide some real world numbers as to how good they work by later this year. I am even thinking of changing the Thunder Hawk over to these for use with my Mopar port fuel injection set up. Good to see these happen.
Dan

SilverHawkDan
01-24-2018, 11:13 PM
The numbers are in. Today I was able to perform the first test of the adapter plates to compare to the stock manifold. There was a carb issue that needs to be addressed before the total improvement can be known but this test shows there is a good reason to use these adapter plates. Stock 1956 259 Stude V8 with 72,000 miles with Edlebrock S.P.2.P intake and stock WCFB carb.
0 to 30 mph .18 seconds improvement
0 to 60 mph .74 seconds improvement
0 to 90 mph 3.3 seconds improvement
0 to 100 mph 2.8 seconds improvement
0 to 110 mph 1.87 seconds improvement
These and the before tests were all performed using the cars speedometer. A speed correction factor shows the actual speed at 110 to be between 105 and 106 mph. The only visual thing that I noted was that as I lifted my foot off the gas when the speedometer reached 110 was that I was short of the point I had lifted in the three before test. The car got there quicker. Still need to either fix the carb issue or just make the move to the modern carb. Not sure which was I will go. I can see that if a person wanted more power out of their car without spending a lot of money they could buy a swap meet set up for SBC and bolt it on their car and it will improve performance. Still need to go to the gas station tomorrow to see if the gas mileage has improved also. Actual numbers can be found on the RacingStudebakers forums under the same heading.
Dan

lumpy
01-24-2018, 11:24 PM
Thats a first! I've never seen an SP2P make and improvement on anything;) Im thinking Mike hit the nail on the head with the stude manifold being a choke point... Maybe next try an old torker with a holly 600 dbl pumper ?

DEEPNHOCK
01-25-2018, 08:04 AM
Thats a first! I've never seen an SP2P make and improvement on anything;) Im thinking Mike hit the nail on the head with the stude manifold being a choke point... Maybe next try an old torker with a holly 600 dbl pumper ?

Remember that this is a set of adapters. Nicely made, too.
But they are adapters.
If your caso bent is just to buy a cheap manifold and chop the ends off and whip it on there... Go for it.
Also remember that the Torker is a single plane open plenum intake. A good intake, yes.
But know what an open plenum single plane intake brings with it.
Look carefully at all your options. You might find that a complete aluminum intake is not all that much more expensive.

(opinion)
Yes, I have a bias, as I build custom aluminum intake manifolds, and modify Stude V8 cast iron intakes.
But I also helped Jon Kammer (the builder) with these adapters (a very minor small part), and am glad he has worked to make the offering.
There is a place for these adaptors. My only comment is to be a careful shopper and consider all alternatives.

Buzzard
01-25-2018, 10:23 AM
Jeff, you are absolutely correct. I just scanned Ebay Motors and there is a plethora of small block intakes, brand new from $89.95(maybe more as I just gave up looking), and scuzzy units for far less. If one is hacking and whacking, it is certainly the way to go.
Bill

PackardV8
01-25-2018, 10:35 AM
Congrats to Jon for producing the SBC manifold adapters, to Jeff for assisting with prototypes and to Dan for documenting the testing. The availability of the millions of SBC intakes; high-rise, 2x4. 3x2, 6x2, supercharger, et al, opens many possibilities for those building very high performance Studebaker V8 engines.

Mike correctly said, "That's one thing the Stude engineers did very well...matched the stock cam, stock heads and intake manifolds (4 barrel carb.) flow very closely to each other." And they made the necessary compromises to fit it all under the hood. When Stude wanted to add the supercharger for the '57-58 Golden Hawks, they had to add a hood scoop for clearance.

For any of us considering one of these performance intakes. the caveat must be mentioned; the ever-present tradeoff of performance increase versus hood clearance. The SBC adapters and many of Jeff's Mopar modified intakes may have a problem fitting under a C/K/Avanti hood. As builders, each must decide if the definite increase in performance is worth the tradeoff of a hood scoop. Lark/truck builds have more clearance, but again, get a confirmed height measurement of the intake under consideration. Here's Dan's test mule.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p56/dieselguy2006/The%20First%20Love%201959%20Silver%20Hawk/IMG_2117_zpsvhrwhapz.jpg

As Jeff said, ". . . . be a careful shopper and consider all alternatives." and the tradeoffs.

jack vines

studegary
01-25-2018, 11:15 AM
I wonder how much of the perceived improvement in performance is due to the cooler outside air being ingested.

Mike Sal
01-25-2018, 01:10 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but I sure wish there was a source for "stock" aluminum parts for Stude engines....intake manifold, water pump manifold, etc. I'm not into hot rodding anymore, but I'd love to be able to get some weight off of those front springs.....
Mike Sal

Dan White
01-25-2018, 02:21 PM
The casting tools exist for all of those things, but the owner does not seem to want to actually make them!

PackardV8
01-25-2018, 04:02 PM
The casting tools exist for all of those things, but the owner does not seem to want to actually make them!

FWIW, yes, the casting patterns for the intake and water manifolds did exist and maybe still do, but it's the machining setup which was always the problem for Lionel Stone. He tried to have the parts machined essentially by hand; quality and dimensional control was problematic. Getting the raw aluminum castings done is one difficult step. To find a machine shop willing to do the setup just to turn out a few dozen parts is the most difficult step in production. BTDTNA.

Another FWIW, Dave Thibault has repopped the R3 exhaust manifolds in aluminum, saving several pounds right there. Is anyone running them on the street?

jack vines

Mike Sal
01-25-2018, 06:36 PM
I would think that as much as cnc machinery has come down in price the machining would be much easier afford and to source than it was 20 years ago.
Mike Sal

PackardV8
01-25-2018, 07:08 PM
I would think that as much as cnc machinery has come down in price the machining would be much easier afford and to source than it was 20 years ago.
Mike Sal

Mike, that's a Yes, No, Maybe question. You can ask Jeff about CNC costs. The fixtures, programming, probing and first article costs are still high. Once an approved program is in place, the next million units are affordable. As I mentioned earlier, it's just any production volume for Stude V8 parts is so low, most CNC shops don't want to bother.

As an example, I make a conversion kit to adapt an Oldsmobile V8 oil pump to the Packard V8. Early on, as part of the kit, I was modifying a Mopar oil pump drive shaft. Once I got a CNC shop to take it on, they decided they could make a new shaft from bar stock, hex on the pump end, double-D on the distributor end, quicker and less expensively than I could modify one end of an existing shaft. With a CNC mill and lathe, they do thirty kits faster than I could do one manually on a Bridgeport mill.

So yes, all that's necessary is for someone to front the money.

jack vines

3x2stude
01-25-2018, 08:35 PM
As many have said the adapters open up many venues to use and also some thing to be cautious of. The old school low rise Edelbrock 3x2s are pricy but low enough to be considered " an under the hood option. A brand new triple is affordable but about 1.5" taller. The trips allow you to not over carb the car too. The same is true for dual quads. The older ones were designed for lower hood of your '62 BelAir and Corvette. I often see some older GM dual quads go cheap, $159.00, photo attached. It was listed as a "Part only" due to corrosion on the water passage, but who cares, you will be cutting it off. They have small runners and throttle openings by today's standards.

I do suggest adding a re-ground cam if you can swing it to help with any adaptation. Head work and port matching is another bonus.

Late GM EGR manifolds off the LT motors are aluminum, spread bore and as cheap as $50.00. Another way to go is throttle body FI if you are adventurous, photo also attached.

I plan to do another run of 10 adapters this spring at the $400.00 price. I believe I have 5 people interested and at that I can stand the cost to "inventory" the other 5. I will keep posting manifolds and try to alert on good buys if I am not bidding on it.

And thanks for the feedback Dan on you installation. As far as I know you are the first. :) I just made sure they fit and went back to other unfinished projects, crossing the adapters off the list.

699836998469985


Jon

3x2stude
01-25-2018, 09:28 PM
Here is another interesting option for you "Turbo" guys, Ted H may like this. "Martin Turbo System". Mid 70's to mid 80's production era. It's a draw through system with a low RPM bypass to reduce the "bog" when you mash the throttle. Complete systems are out there. All you really need is the complete manifold. The Martin turbo would be good to have but you could substitute, just make sure it is a turbo designed to have fuel going through it. You would need to make your own right side exhaust manifold and induction tube but that is all fabrication 101 for the hot rodder, :). Attached are some shots assembled and the kit laid out. The gold assemble is an N.O.S kit that sold for $1200.00 without the exhaust, May 2017. I watched an "intake only" post on EBay for $750.00 at a "buy it now" a month ago and held off on it for two reasons, I needed another project right now like a hole in the head and I needed blower motor forged pistons, I went with the pistons, kind of regret it now. Endless possibilities.


69987699886998969990


JK

jpepper
01-25-2018, 09:48 PM
As many have said the adapters open up many venues to use and also some thing to be cautious of. The old school low rise Edelbrock 3x2s are pricy but low enough to be considered " an under the hood option. A brand new triple is affordable but about 1.5" taller. The trips allow you to not over carb the car too. The same is true for dual quads. The older ones were designed for lower hood of your '62 BelAir and Corvette. I often see some older GM dual quads go cheap, $159.00, photo attached. It was listed as a "Part only" due to corrosion on the water passage, but who cares, you will be cutting it off. They have small runners and throttle openings by today's standards.

I do suggest adding a re-ground cam if you can swing it to help with any adaptation. Head work and port matching is another bonus.

Late GM EGR manifolds off the LT motors are aluminum, spread bore and as cheap as $50.00. Another way to go is throttle body FI if you are adventurous, photo also attached.

I plan to do another run of 10 adapters this spring at the $400.00 price. I believe I have 5 people interested and at that I can stand the cost to "inventory" the other 5. I will keep posting manifolds and try to alert on good buys if I am not bidding on it.

And thanks for the feedback Dan on you installation. As far as I know you are the first. :) I just made sure they fit and went back to other unfinished projects, crossing the adapters off the list.

699836998469985


Jon
Jon, I am interested in a set. Email me. I am not to far from you.
jimpepper60@gmail.com

3x2stude
01-25-2018, 09:53 PM
Here is a rarely seen MOPAR version of the Martin that Jeff could probably adapt and skip the adapters, :). If I ever see one for sale I will buy it to see if we can do it. It would definitely be lower out of the box on the carb side. Remember the interconnecting "air" plumbing would need to be fabricated to fit the Stude so it can be lower.

69991


JK

BobWaitz
01-25-2018, 11:07 PM
Now THAT looks like fun!!!

SilverHawkDan
01-26-2018, 01:09 AM
So keep in mind I had the running car. Time on my hands. And a desire to know what was possible. I also got the manifold by saving it from being melted down., In other words FREE. I would have used one of the newer version manifolds if I was building this but I can tell you I am through with carburetors. Eventually the adapters will be match ported to my reworked heads and the intake will be an SBC multi port fuel injection unit with a Mopar controller and parts. What I have done and will do with this intake are for information and for discussion. I really feel the best performer will be the Quadrajet but we shall see. I do agree that part of the performance gain was probably due to fresh air intake. I am moving the air filter under the hood tomorrow but until I switch carbs and eliminate the spacer, the top hat will still be sticking out. After I get done seeing how much I can get out of a carb everyone considers junk I will switch to the Holley 1850-3 600 cfm vacuum secondary carb next. The spacer plate will have to remain for that carb too. Keep in mind we are building a 700 horsepower Stude engine for use at Bonneville this year and it will feature a port matched set of Jon's adapters and Kinsler port fuel injection with a massive ProChrager and ice water intercooler built into the intake manifold.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p56/dieselguy2006/The%20Golden%20Flyer%20for%20Bonneville/IMG_1595%20-%20Copy_zpseldisupa.jpg (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/dieselguy2006/media/The%20Golden%20Flyer%20for%20Bonneville/IMG_1595%20-%20Copy_zpseldisupa.jpg.html)
So stay tuned and enjoy the ride. I know I am.
Dan

SilverHawkDan
01-26-2018, 01:37 AM
After re-reading all the posts I feel the need to step in here. The comments about head porting and camshaft selection are all right on. When I build a performance engine for the street or racing I always take the time to make sure that all the engine components match each other. Case in point. Three years ago I built a 350 Chevy engine for a guy who races dirt tracks with a 73 Malibu land barge. He kept calling me wondering when I was going to give him the list of engine parts to order. I didn't even blink. I looked at all the factors, weight of the car, transmission and converter, exhaust system and I even factored in that he was a rookie driver. After I checked and double checked I gave him the list. I built the engine. Keep in mind he had already broken three engines in the first three races so he was rookie dangerous. That engine was raced the rest of the season. Ran with the guys with $7000 engines (ours cost under $1500) and helped him finish second in points (even after DNQ'ing the first three races) at the local track and he won rookie of the year. I built the engine so it could withstand having limited timing and rich fuel mixtures to protect it until the guy learned how to drive it. As the season progressed I gave him more of what the engine was capable of. By the last race he was running it at full potential and he shot to the front and led the entire race winning his second main in a row. That didn't happen by accident it took a lot of research and planning and thought.

So if you are building an engine be sure to write out a plan. What will it be used for? How many miles per year? How for do you plan to drive it per event? What rear end gear ratio? What transmission? All things must be considered if you expect good results. It has taken years to get here but now I share what I have learned with anyone who wants to learn.

By the way the next year the "rookie" decided he had learned enough and he changed the heads to 202 heads with big valves and a bigger illegal camshaft and who knows what. How did that turn out? He hasn't run consistently since I left. Tried to point out that since the car had a single exhaust system and was required to use stock cast iron manifolds it was not a good idea to increase the size of the valves and cam but he learned his lesson. I could never get it into his head or a lot of others at the track that it doesn't matter how much horsepower you make when you all have to run a maximum tire tread width of 7". On dirt making more power can hurt you if you can't apply it to the track surface. Ok now I have put my .02 in.
Dan

DEEPNHOCK
01-26-2018, 08:00 AM
I think it is fantastic that a few are stepping forward to make the effort to build some cool stuff for Stude's.
Jon and I kicked some ideas around a couple years ago, and I hacked up something nice he sent me.

http://www.racingstudebakers.com/foo/download/file.php?id=2520&t=1

Sometmes all it takes is is a seed. Jon has that wicked gene about cool Stude stuff.
After seeing his stuff on the Racing Studebakers Forum, I conned Jon into coming
to South Bend for the May swap meet last year.
Rolled my dummy engine under the awning outside the trailer and let Jon set up his stuff on display.

Selfish? You betcha (a 'Calvinism')... Jon's stuff was a crowd draw extraordinaire.
He held a crowd in front all the time he was there.

https://i.imgur.com/6CoXHfh.jpg

His effort to make these adapters has been great. Adds stainless steel thread inserts to all of them.
Overkill? Yeah, but good overkill.
Is Jon in competition with what I do? Ehhh.. Maybe. But so what? He builds good stuff. Keeps me on my toes.
I will say that having looked at the quality of what Jon has done, you won't go wrong spending your money on these adapter plates.

Lynn
01-26-2018, 08:25 AM
Jon: For us relative newcomers to the Studebaker world, can you post a link to the race site. When you refer to "Over on the racing site" I am clueless.
Some would argue I am clueless about a lot of things.

DEEPNHOCK
01-26-2018, 08:48 AM
Here you go!
http://www.racingstudebakers.com/foo/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3336



Jon: For us relative newcomers to the Studebaker world, can you post a link to the race site. When you refer to "Over on the racing site" I am clueless.
Some would argue I am clueless about a lot of things.

spokejr
01-26-2018, 09:51 AM
"Sometmes all it takes is is a seed. Jon has that wicked gene about cool Stude stuff.
After seeing his stuff on the Racing Studebakers Forum, I conned Jon into coming
to South Bend for the May swap meet last year.
Rolled my dummy engine outside the trailer and let Jon set up his stuff on display.

https://i.imgur.com/6CoXHfh.jpg

His effort to make these adapters has been great. Adds stainless steel thread inserts to all of them.
Overkill? Yeah, but good overkill.
Is Jon in competition with what I do? Ehhh.. Maybe. But so what? He builds good stuff. Keeps me on my toes.
I will say that having looked at the quality of what Jon has done, you won't go wrong spending your money on these adapter plates.[/QUOTE]"

Nice, a set of Webers like that would look awesome in an Avanti engine bay...until you close the hood. Then again, who'd want to close the hood with a view like that?

As for being competitors, some of the best advances come when friendly competitors put their heads together and become collaborators.

Alan
01-26-2018, 01:33 PM
Jon, That Martin setup is similar to the Accel priority valve setup I had on my 63 T-Cab. But trucks have a lot of room under the hood.

3x2stude
01-26-2018, 08:34 PM
I did some work on weighing some of the components to see where weight could be saved, I just have to find it. Firestopper bought a set of adapters to do just that on his Avanti. I bought a set of Dave T's aluminum R3 exhaust just because I am an aluminum speed part junkie and had to have a set. When something like that come along you need to jump on it. If they don't sell well it would be a one time deal. I will try to do a "weigh in" on some of these casting this weekend and do a separate post. I just had a scary thought on how to do a modern aluminum water housing, dam, that will slow up some other project. Now maybe you all see how my mind works. :) I get paid every day to dream up ways to do difficult fabrications so it is hard to turn it off when I get home. :)

JK

3x2stude
01-26-2018, 09:13 PM
As a reply to Jeff Rice's posts I appreciate all his help on the original adapters and allowing me to share his spot last year. He didn't have to do that. It was so fun to get the folks stopped, tell them what I was doing and then send them in the trailer, I felt like a carnival barker. My hair is longer and grayer since then. I hope some day Jeff and I can do it again some time.

JK

firestoper 25
01-26-2018, 10:48 PM
JK, I will be standing inline to purchase parts on the weight saving aluminum bits & pieces plan....I need to put the Avanti front end on the Marie Osmond "turbo" max diet plan.;) I bought two scrub condition chev aluminum intakes at Iola last summer to play with this summer using your adaptors, I will let you know how it goes. Regards Sherm / Green Bay

3x2stude
02-12-2018, 10:13 PM
I am planning on another run of ten sets mid April. Anyone still interested should PM me.

JK

starliner62
02-12-2018, 11:53 PM
I have a set of Jon's adapters on the engine going in my Lark. I love the look and throttle response seems to have improved. If I can figure out how to get a video on here, I'll post it.

3x2stude
02-21-2018, 11:32 PM
Jamie,

What did you use for your first manifold choice? Post a picture if you can. If not PM me some feedback.

JK

SilverHawkDan
02-22-2018, 02:10 PM
Jon,

My wife and I took the Hawk on a three day trip up North to the Monterey area this past weekend. The car ran great and the gas mileage was 16.4 running at 80 mph on the speedometer which is about 75 mph. 17.6 running with the speedometer at 70 coming home which is about 66 mph. Didn't get the hood scoop finished so lots of fresh air but still I noticed that the power band was strong all the way to 80 mph and street manners once the engine was warmed up were good. This was with the WCFB carb. Holley is going on tomorrow and then we will see what difference that makes. It is a 600 cfm Part # 1850-3. Hoping to get the Quadrajet this weekend from the guy. Thanks for a great product that is giving me lots of options to work with.
Dan