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View Full Version : Brakes: Are these new Brake Springs going to work (57GHawk), or too tight? See photos, thanks!



bsrosell
07-15-2017, 12:18 AM
Hi,
I installed ONE set of brakes (well, 1/2; need to undo and reinstall per old post I found, Bez method? Or buy a spring expander.... I'll NEVER get that bottom spring and adjuster in "last" per Shop Manual with a vice-grip! Oh MAN are these springs strong!

Ripped one of the rubber wheel cylinder covers too, fighting those shoes in. Sigh. Anyone know where Phil Harris gets his wheel Cylinders or if I can just take the other one into NAPA or CARQUEST and have them match it? (Does anyone SELL just the covers?). Will try to call him tomorrow but if one of you knows and I can't catch him, I can keep going on my day off. I have the box but don't know if THOSE numbers (in addition to the Stude ones, I mean) will be of any help to CARQUEST...

But PRIMARY QUESTION: in the photos I've attached show a different problem(?): the new SPRINGS are larger diameter than the ones I took off. Perhaps correct for 57 Golden Hawk and old ones weren't , I don't know.
But new springs are 0.100", and the old ones are ~0.093-.095. (Bought all these in a kit from Phil so trust they are right, he knows his stuff). But, look at the photos, and tell me if this is anything to worry about; you can see that even under tension after being installed, the 2nd spring doesn't quite 'fit' and is riding on the 1st spring and the radius of the pin, not the pin shaft itself. Does it matter? Not going to come off! But I just wondered about the high-tension on that pin where it isn't designed to be (ie: on the cone, not on the shaft itself. OR, if that spring eventually forces its way down, will the adjuster, etc. be too tight and not rotate/bind?

Only thing I could do is try to "evenly" sand down one of the two pieces mounted there a few thousandth to make up for the extra spring diameter. Has no one else experienced this? I was surprised to find no posts about this, are all the "new" springs are a tad thicker like this?
Thanks!
Barry

doofus
07-15-2017, 06:29 AM
Try this, "Build one side on floor. 2 shoes with adjuster and adjuster spring in place. now hang assy on backing plate and wheel cyls and hold in place with one hand while clipping retainer to brake "Nail", now clip other side. make sure whl cyl push pins are on shoe and shoes are against block then install return springs.don't forget emergency brake equalizer bar and anti rattle clip. Luck Doofus

bsrosell
07-15-2017, 10:09 AM
Thanks, will try that if yours or Bez (oid post) method of starting with the lower spring/adjuster ON the wheel (same concept I guess) doesn't quite get me 'hooked up'.

1) Speaking of, so the new "kit" thicker springs are OK? (and what everyone else has? Different brands are not any different (ie: original ~0.095")

2) Anyone have the numbers for the front and rear wheel cylinders? '57 Golden Hawk. I've had these (IN my house, but original packaging, never thought to put them in sealed bags) since the 2011 (?) Intl meet in Springfield when I had Phil bring me a whole bunch of stuff I knew I'd need eventually. Just has gone slower than I planned for various reasons. BUT, when rubber broke, plugger popped out (dropped on floor, slight nick which I gently filed and 1000grit sanded and Scotchbrite polished), but was disturbed to see a "discoloration" area of orangish color inside cylinder. Still FEELS smooth, and have not taken the other ones apart yet, but makes me wonder if at this point, if I should swallow hard and just buy four new ones and not start out with "corrosion has started" cylinders.... (and would like to go buy them TODAY, all day to work, and ROADBLOCK.

3) what do you use as lubricant on the wheel cylinders, Vaseline? Shop Manual says NO LUBRICANT, because of the rubber ..... But there was obviously some protecting stuff on this (FEELS like Vaseline, but have no idea). And obviously was not put on everywhere; the non-slippery areas are where it is slightly orange/discolored. Want SOMETHING at least on those pins where they go through holes in the rubber caps, but not sure what to use; modern rubbers withstand a lot more than in 1957.

Will repost this question separately since this started as a SPRING SIZE question.
Thanks!
Barry

345 DeSoto
07-15-2017, 10:24 AM
BARRY - Use the term "WHEEL cylinders", instead of "Master Cylinders"... unless you're talking about THE Master Cylinder.

jackb
07-15-2017, 10:43 AM
you show a "left" side brake set up in your photo

bsrosell
07-15-2017, 10:49 AM
(re: MASTER vs WHEEL): yeah, was just going to edit as I realized my mistake! ;-) Thanks.

bsrosell
07-15-2017, 10:57 AM
Yes, left rear; did I mess you up with my late night mistake of misusing MASTER instead of WHEEL cylinder? Otherwise, not sure what you are getting at... But yes, starting on the left rear.
you show a "left" side brake set up in your photo

tsenecal
07-15-2017, 11:07 AM
The springs do look just a tad too thick, but should not cause a problem. I think that after a few miles on the road, you could pull a drum and see that they are both seated in the way they belong. If you plan to do your own brake work, you should invest in some good brake tools. Mine are Snap-on, and work very well, but there cheaper versions that would work well also. This will make the job go much better for you. Good luck.

bsrosell
07-15-2017, 11:17 AM
thanks; yes, I typically get the 'tool for the job', but do so little brake work (other than discs on my MODERN cars), and NEVER had springs this strong before, wow! But might see what NAPA has, and pick up DOT5 to lubricate with per other poster. (and I'm going to use DOT 5 eventually; still have to make my brake lines, and myriad of other things before fluid is pumped back to those cylinders!

The springs do look just a tad too thick, but should not cause a problem. I think that after a few miles on the road, you could pull a drum and see that they are both seated in the way they belong. If you plan to do your own brake work, you should invest in some good brake tools. Mine are Snap-on, and work very well, but there cheaper versions that would work well also. This will make the job go much better for you. Good luck.

bsrosell
07-15-2017, 11:38 AM
FOUND THE INTERCHANGE GUIDE on the Tech Tips page! Forgot about that great resource......
Whether anyone has them in stock, different question. :-) Might be starting on the front end suspension today instead.

jackb
07-15-2017, 04:56 PM
.... I just wanted to concur with you that the anchor pin has an arrow that I've seen reversed on brakes....don't use Dot 5 if you flare your own brake lines....unless you're really good at it..

bsrosell
07-15-2017, 05:46 PM
thanks; picked up the correct orientation of arrow (and barely caught reference of "primary and secondary" shoes..... somethings they must assume everyone knew back then?). re: DOT 5, I backed off using SS lines after much advice from this forum; so have the copper-nickel stuff; and a friend had already bought be a professional-grade flaring set for the SS he wanted me to use.... SO, I'm going to go for it, and HAVE to make my own lines pretty much, too many "changes" with Turner M/C, and adding an R2 fuel pump so I can have a return line to the tank... so pre-flared pieces would be a real pain in the hinder for short pieces and such. And have not heard good things about a lot of the FLAPS pre-flared pieces you "run and get the length you need" stuff.. And I DON'T want to use DOT 3; have seen what's it done to my Dad's '53 Buick when any leaks. Rather have to fix connections than repaint.

BUT, you are right, I better practice and get darn good at those joints! Forewarned....

.... I just wanted to concur with you that the anchor pin has an arrow that I've seen reversed on brakes....don't use Dot 5 if you flare your own brake lines....unless you're really good at it..

Treblig
07-15-2017, 06:09 PM
Remember that the long shoe goes towards the front!!!

Treblig

bezhawk
07-15-2017, 06:27 PM
Remember that the long shoe goes towards the front!!!

Treblig No, They go on the rear, except when disc brakes were used. A good rule of thumb is if the bottom of the shoes are tied to each other through a link, or adjusting star wheel, then the short shoe is the leading shoe. If they are anchored at the bottom, then the long shoe is leading, or the linings may also be the same.
The reason is the shorter lining is the one pushed out in the direction of forward motion (since the wheel cylinder is at the top) . The servo action should be lessened so it doesn't grab. The friction of the shoe rotates it slightly, since it is tied to the secondary shoe, the rotational energy is applied to that shoe, and it imparts a engergizong force to it too. The wheel cylinder is only part os the braking action the servo action makes up for the greatest part of the stopping force. That is why they are called self-energizing, servo action brakes.

Treblig
07-15-2017, 06:45 PM
No, They go on the rear, except when disc brakes were used. A good rule of thumb is if the bottom of the shoes are tied to each other through a link, or adjusting star wheel, then the short shoe is the leading shoe. If they are anchored at the bottom, then the long shoe is leading, or the linings may also be the same.
The reason is the shorter lining is the one pushed out in the direction of forward motion (since the wheel cylinder is at the top) . The servo action should be lessened so it doesn't grab. The friction of the shoe rotates it slightly, since it is tied to the secondary shoe, the rotational energy is applied to that shoe, and it imparts a engergizong force to it too. The wheel cylinder is only part os the braking action the servo action makes up for the greatest part of the stopping force. That is why they are called self-energizing, servo action brakes.


Don't know what I was thinking????:eek:

Treblig

StudeRich
07-15-2017, 08:31 PM
/Cut/Ripped one of the rubber wheel cylinder covers too, fighting those shoes in. Sigh. Anyone know where Phil Harris gets his wheel Cylinders or if I can just take the other one into NAPA or CARQUEST and have them match it? (Does anyone SELL just the covers?). Will try to call him tomorrow but if one of you knows and I can't catch him, I can keep going on my day off. I have the box but don't know if THOSE numbers (in addition to the Stude ones, I mean) will be of any help to CARQUEST.../Cut/


I THOUGHT this issue was resolved over here:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?101809-Wheel-Cylinders-(new-but-6-years-sitting-in-basement)-Discoloration-(corrosion)-started-replace

New Wheel Cylinder Repair Kits will take care of all the W/C issues.

:confused:

doofus
07-16-2017, 07:26 AM
Barry the key to a good double flare is to ream the cut end of the line to get the thickness at the very end uniform. practice is good idea. Keep up the good work! Doofus