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JDP
01-14-2008, 11:03 PM
Pay a million down and 42K a month for a nice Mustang,

http://www.classicmusclecars.com/cgi-bin/swrm/det.cgi?id=283616150&bl=m-;;k-;;nhs-20;;status-Investment;;sb-year

JDP/Maryland
63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
spent to date $54664,75
64 R2 GT (Sid)
spent to date $62,839.60
63 Lark 2 door
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

fpstude
01-14-2008, 11:26 PM
I am a docent at the Towe Museum, where this car was stored for several years. I also am part of a team that works on museum cars on Thursdays. I did some minor maintenance on this car while it was there. It was removed about a year ago. I had no idea about it's value.

Perry
'23 Special Six,
'50 Business Champ,
'50 Starlight Champ,
'60 Lark droptop,
'63 GT R1

fpstude
01-14-2008, 11:26 PM
I am a docent at the Towe Museum, where this car was stored for several years. I also am part of a team that works on museum cars on Thursdays. I did some minor maintenance on this car while it was there. It was removed about a year ago. I had no idea about it's value.

Perry
'23 Special Six,
'50 Business Champ,
'50 Starlight Champ,
'60 Lark droptop,
'63 GT R1

StudeRich
01-14-2008, 11:56 PM
All I have to say is, for my five Million, 500 Thousand Dollars, I certainly would demand a stink-n HEATER, especially in a drafty convertible!![:0][:0]

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

StudeRich
01-14-2008, 11:56 PM
All I have to say is, for my five Million, 500 Thousand Dollars, I certainly would demand a stink-n HEATER, especially in a drafty convertible!![:0][:0]

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

avantilover
01-15-2008, 01:35 AM
Yes, it's a special car, but I hardly think worth $5 Million. I seem to recall a Talbot-Lago ccar selling for $3,500,000 or similar and that was a REAL special car.

John Clements
Avantilover, your South Australian Studebaker lover!!!
Lockleys South Australia

avantilover
01-15-2008, 01:35 AM
Yes, it's a special car, but I hardly think worth $5 Million. I seem to recall a Talbot-Lago ccar selling for $3,500,000 or similar and that was a REAL special car.

John Clements
Avantilover, your South Australian Studebaker lover!!!
Lockleys South Australia

Swifster
01-15-2008, 02:03 AM
I will say that if it's the real deal, I'd be SHOCKED! Ford hunted that car down and bought it 10 plus years ago and it was at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. They did enough to make it driveable (brakes, etc.) but planned to leave it as they bought it. I can't believe they would have sold that car after spending 30+ years hunting it down.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Valrico, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $1755.45)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg

Swifster
01-15-2008, 02:03 AM
I will say that if it's the real deal, I'd be SHOCKED! Ford hunted that car down and bought it 10 plus years ago and it was at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. They did enough to make it driveable (brakes, etc.) but planned to leave it as they bought it. I can't believe they would have sold that car after spending 30+ years hunting it down.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Valrico, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $1755.45)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg

8E45E
01-15-2008, 02:17 AM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

Pay a million down and 42K a month for a nice Mustang,


To get the mandatory 'Studebaker content' in this thread, it must only upset one to think how Studebaker severely missed its mark with the Avanti only two years before.[V] According to the text, Ford had brand new Mustangs in customers' hands before the actual introduction date:

Mustang Convertible 100212 was sold at Powell Ford in Fort Lauderdale, Fl. The Mustang was preordered by a couple. The dealership delivered the Mustang to them on the evening of the 16th, even though the official first day of sale was the 17th. That makes this Mustang Convertible also the first Mustang sold to the public! Among the extensive documentation is the original Internal Bill of Sale, which indicates on the bottom "Retail Delivery 4/16/64." and is initialed by the Sales Manager. Therefore, this vehicle is not only the first convertible built for sale to the public, but also the first Mustang sold to the public.

By the time the Avanti was truly ready for market many months after its announcement date, interest had unfortunately waned. Once again, it proves having product 'on the shelf' is vital to its success in the marketplace.

Craig

8E45E
01-15-2008, 02:17 AM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

Pay a million down and 42K a month for a nice Mustang,


To get the mandatory 'Studebaker content' in this thread, it must only upset one to think how Studebaker severely missed its mark with the Avanti only two years before.[V] According to the text, Ford had brand new Mustangs in customers' hands before the actual introduction date:

Mustang Convertible 100212 was sold at Powell Ford in Fort Lauderdale, Fl. The Mustang was preordered by a couple. The dealership delivered the Mustang to them on the evening of the 16th, even though the official first day of sale was the 17th. That makes this Mustang Convertible also the first Mustang sold to the public! Among the extensive documentation is the original Internal Bill of Sale, which indicates on the bottom "Retail Delivery 4/16/64." and is initialed by the Sales Manager. Therefore, this vehicle is not only the first convertible built for sale to the public, but also the first Mustang sold to the public.

By the time the Avanti was truly ready for market many months after its announcement date, interest had unfortunately waned. Once again, it proves having product 'on the shelf' is vital to its success in the marketplace.

Craig

Randy_G
01-15-2008, 05:21 AM
quote:Originally posted by Swifster

I will say that if it's the real deal, I'd be SHOCKED! Ford hunted that car down and bought it 10 plus years ago and it was at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. They did enough to make it driveable (brakes, etc.) but planned to leave it as they bought it. I can't believe they would have sold that car after spending 30+ years hunting it down.

Tom - Valrico, FL


I agree with Tom, I know musuems sell cars for reasons of there own, but this car is as important to the history of Ford as the Model T. It's not like the "The Henry Ford" needed the money.

Randy_G
1959 Lark Sedan
www.AutomotiveHistoryOnline.com
http://www.automotivehistoryonline.com/emtr.jpg

Randy_G
01-15-2008, 05:21 AM
quote:Originally posted by Swifster

I will say that if it's the real deal, I'd be SHOCKED! Ford hunted that car down and bought it 10 plus years ago and it was at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn. They did enough to make it driveable (brakes, etc.) but planned to leave it as they bought it. I can't believe they would have sold that car after spending 30+ years hunting it down.

Tom - Valrico, FL


I agree with Tom, I know musuems sell cars for reasons of there own, but this car is as important to the history of Ford as the Model T. It's not like the "The Henry Ford" needed the money.

Randy_G
1959 Lark Sedan
www.AutomotiveHistoryOnline.com
http://www.automotivehistoryonline.com/emtr.jpg

bonehead007
01-15-2008, 06:22 AM
I'll save $4,970,000 & buy a restored one instead....Besides, wouldn't the first off the line be in Ford's museum or go to one of the executives of Ford ?? Also, look what the special edition Mustang went for last year at Barret Jackson that Ford kept under wraps until the actual auction, 250,000...this guys dreaming.....

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q189/bonehead007/MVC-021F.jpg

New Jersey & Studes Perfect Together

bonehead007
01-15-2008, 06:22 AM
I'll save $4,970,000 & buy a restored one instead....Besides, wouldn't the first off the line be in Ford's museum or go to one of the executives of Ford ?? Also, look what the special edition Mustang went for last year at Barret Jackson that Ford kept under wraps until the actual auction, 250,000...this guys dreaming.....

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q189/bonehead007/MVC-021F.jpg

New Jersey & Studes Perfect Together

DEEPNHOCK
01-15-2008, 07:01 AM
That is one heck of a jump Craig.
Let's say Studebaker did 'hit' with the Avanti.
If they stopped building [u]every</u> single item they make/made and switched 100% of all production to the Avanti....
They still could never have built the sheer quantity of Avanti's that Ford built as Mustangs, even with all shifts running.
Then, think about the vendors supplying the production lines, with shortages and back orders (that would halt the production line).
Heck, I don't think they could even cast that many blocks in that timeframe. The cost's and margin's would have killed it all off even faster than it really did happen.
The decisions had already been made and no stinkin' sales numbers were going to turn the barge around in the middle of the river they were in. (imoho)
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by 8E45E
To get the mandatory 'Studebaker content' in this thread, it must only upset one to think how Studebaker severely missed its mark with the Avanti only two years before.[V] According to the text, Ford had brand new Mustangs in customers' hands before the actual introduction date:
Mustang Convertible 100212 was sold at Powell Ford in Fort Lauderdale, Fl. The Mustang was preordered by a couple. The dealership delivered the Mustang to them on the evening of the 16th, even though the official first day of sale was the 17th. That makes this Mustang Convertible also the first Mustang sold to the public! Among the extensive documentation is the original Internal Bill of Sale, which indicates on the bottom "Retail Delivery 4/16/64." and is initialed by the Sales Manager. Therefore, this vehicle is not only the first convertible built for sale to the public, but also the first Mustang sold to the public.
By the time the Avanti was truly ready for market many months after its announcement date, interest had unfortunately waned. Once again, it proves having product 'on the shelf' is vital to its success in the marketplace.
Craig

DEEPNHOCK
01-15-2008, 07:01 AM
That is one heck of a jump Craig.
Let's say Studebaker did 'hit' with the Avanti.
If they stopped building [u]every</u> single item they make/made and switched 100% of all production to the Avanti....
They still could never have built the sheer quantity of Avanti's that Ford built as Mustangs, even with all shifts running.
Then, think about the vendors supplying the production lines, with shortages and back orders (that would halt the production line).
Heck, I don't think they could even cast that many blocks in that timeframe. The cost's and margin's would have killed it all off even faster than it really did happen.
The decisions had already been made and no stinkin' sales numbers were going to turn the barge around in the middle of the river they were in. (imoho)
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by 8E45E
To get the mandatory 'Studebaker content' in this thread, it must only upset one to think how Studebaker severely missed its mark with the Avanti only two years before.[V] According to the text, Ford had brand new Mustangs in customers' hands before the actual introduction date:
Mustang Convertible 100212 was sold at Powell Ford in Fort Lauderdale, Fl. The Mustang was preordered by a couple. The dealership delivered the Mustang to them on the evening of the 16th, even though the official first day of sale was the 17th. That makes this Mustang Convertible also the first Mustang sold to the public! Among the extensive documentation is the original Internal Bill of Sale, which indicates on the bottom "Retail Delivery 4/16/64." and is initialed by the Sales Manager. Therefore, this vehicle is not only the first convertible built for sale to the public, but also the first Mustang sold to the public.
By the time the Avanti was truly ready for market many months after its announcement date, interest had unfortunately waned. Once again, it proves having product 'on the shelf' is vital to its success in the marketplace.
Craig

jackb
01-15-2008, 07:12 AM
.....just another sales gimmick to try and bolster the old car market...

jackb
01-15-2008, 07:12 AM
.....just another sales gimmick to try and bolster the old car market...

Scott
01-15-2008, 09:13 AM
If some fool wants to pay that much, let him.

Scott
01-15-2008, 09:13 AM
If some fool wants to pay that much, let him.

Mark57
01-15-2008, 10:23 AM
[V]...Then add the cost of a secure storage facility to house a $5.5M car...[xx(]

<h5>Mark
'57 Transtar
3E-6/7-122 </h5>
[img]http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x153/MarkH57/MrGreenJeans1003b.jpg

Mark57
01-15-2008, 10:23 AM
[V]...Then add the cost of a secure storage facility to house a $5.5M car...[xx(]

<h5>Mark
'57 Transtar
3E-6/7-122 </h5>
[img]http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x153/MarkH57/MrGreenJeans1003b.jpg

Roscomacaw
01-15-2008, 10:55 AM
All the hype aboiut THIS particular Mustang aside - don't you know that some of the folks at Studebaker watched in awe/envy/disheartenment as this phenomenon took off in mid-64.[V] With Stude's automotive ship already having been set to be scuttled, the skyrocket run of this cheap "sports car" had to have made some of those who'd tried to pull a last-minute rabbit out of the hat in South Bend, groan.:(

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

Roscomacaw
01-15-2008, 10:55 AM
All the hype aboiut THIS particular Mustang aside - don't you know that some of the folks at Studebaker watched in awe/envy/disheartenment as this phenomenon took off in mid-64.[V] With Stude's automotive ship already having been set to be scuttled, the skyrocket run of this cheap "sports car" had to have made some of those who'd tried to pull a last-minute rabbit out of the hat in South Bend, groan.:(

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

studeclunker
01-15-2008, 11:41 AM
20/20 hindsight aside... it seems to me that the Avanti could have helped Studebaker considerably had they introduced it as smoothly as Ford did the Mustang. The company botched it's last chance as it had in '53. They wowed the public with a fantastic car that the company couldn't deliver. Then when they did deliver it, there were problems with shoddy workmanship and supply line delays. They must have been taking stupid pills in the board room at South Bend. Either that, or the orders coming up from the subsidiaries were prompted by the same.

As to production? Who cares?! As long as Studebaker could have made a profit, let Ford sell their ponies! The fact that an Avanti would kick a Mustang's ass would have been sufficient to sell the cars at any price (within reason)! This would have justified the difference in price. Sadly, the company was on the ropes and couldn't deliver. Thus the public's confidence was lost. Demand went out the window.:( Studebaker foundered. I must say though, convertables were the thing in the 60s. Avanti would have benefited from one. Ah, well.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/december%2006/HPIM0234.jpg http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/56%20Parkview%20Wagon/56wagonleftfrontclipped-1.jpg
Home of the famous Mr. Ed!
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

studeclunker
01-15-2008, 11:41 AM
20/20 hindsight aside... it seems to me that the Avanti could have helped Studebaker considerably had they introduced it as smoothly as Ford did the Mustang. The company botched it's last chance as it had in '53. They wowed the public with a fantastic car that the company couldn't deliver. Then when they did deliver it, there were problems with shoddy workmanship and supply line delays. They must have been taking stupid pills in the board room at South Bend. Either that, or the orders coming up from the subsidiaries were prompted by the same.

As to production? Who cares?! As long as Studebaker could have made a profit, let Ford sell their ponies! The fact that an Avanti would kick a Mustang's ass would have been sufficient to sell the cars at any price (within reason)! This would have justified the difference in price. Sadly, the company was on the ropes and couldn't deliver. Thus the public's confidence was lost. Demand went out the window.:( Studebaker foundered. I must say though, convertables were the thing in the 60s. Avanti would have benefited from one. Ah, well.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/december%2006/HPIM0234.jpg http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/56%20Parkview%20Wagon/56wagonleftfrontclipped-1.jpg
Home of the famous Mr. Ed!
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

JBOYLE
01-15-2008, 11:50 AM
Re: Mustang & Avanti..

Seeing Ford's cheap sports car became a success must have been difficult...especially from the South Bend unemployment lines...

As discussed here before, both cars were based on prosaic
underpinnings (Falcon and the 53 chassis, respectively).

But by making a simpler, cheaper (both to produce and purchase) car Ford hit the homerun.

Perhaps the Avanti was just too good
(read ambitious and expensive) to survive?
But the reality is, they built the car for a very real market at the wrong time.

IMHO: if Studebaker had survived, the Avanti would have been a smash years later (the late 60s and 70s) when people were spending lots of money on distintive cars). Look at the loaded Cutlass', Monte Carlos, Cordobas and T-Birds that were sold.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

JBOYLE
01-15-2008, 11:50 AM
Re: Mustang & Avanti..

Seeing Ford's cheap sports car became a success must have been difficult...especially from the South Bend unemployment lines...

As discussed here before, both cars were based on prosaic
underpinnings (Falcon and the 53 chassis, respectively).

But by making a simpler, cheaper (both to produce and purchase) car Ford hit the homerun.

Perhaps the Avanti was just too good
(read ambitious and expensive) to survive?
But the reality is, they built the car for a very real market at the wrong time.

IMHO: if Studebaker had survived, the Avanti would have been a smash years later (the late 60s and 70s) when people were spending lots of money on distintive cars). Look at the loaded Cutlass', Monte Carlos, Cordobas and T-Birds that were sold.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

bonehead007
01-15-2008, 12:15 PM
The unfortunate fact is that Studebakers BOD never backed Egbert 100 %.. If the tables had turned and Iacoca had worked for Studebaker instead and introduced the Mustang there instead do you beleive things would have been different ??

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q189/bonehead007/MVC-021F.jpg

New Jersey & Studes Perfect Together

bonehead007
01-15-2008, 12:15 PM
The unfortunate fact is that Studebakers BOD never backed Egbert 100 %.. If the tables had turned and Iacoca had worked for Studebaker instead and introduced the Mustang there instead do you beleive things would have been different ??

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q189/bonehead007/MVC-021F.jpg

New Jersey & Studes Perfect Together

BobPalma
01-15-2008, 12:36 PM
:) An interesting thread, to be sure.

Two points:

1. The seller's marketing of this particular Mustang isn't a scam because the facts are there somewhere...you just have to read the fine print.

*Is it the first Mustang built, as in a prototype that was eventually sold? NO.

*Is it the first Mustang produced as a regular production model once regular production commenced? NO.

*Is it the first Mustang delivered to a retail purchaser? Apparently, YES. (That's OK, but the hype could lead you to believe you were bidding on the first one built as a prototype or the first one built as a regular production unit, neither of which it is, but that must be deduced by reading and carefully digesting the whole written copy.)


2.The Studebaker's Avanti production problems probably resulted from Sherwood Egbert's blissful ignorance (true ignorance, "just not knowing enough," as opposed to stupidity) of automotive manufacturing realities. After all, he had pushed through the heavily-restyled 1962 Hawk in industry-unheard of record time; why not this new "sports" car?

You can be sure that Molded Fiberglass Company (not sure if that is the exact name), builders of both Avanti and Corvette bodies, was going to give The General preference and priority in all matters, should even the slightest blip appear on the "resources utilization" screen. The contract to change everything for building the all-new 1963 Sting-Ray bodies while simultaneously building the all-new Avanti bodies, undoubtedly overwhelmed the small company. Business was probably too good for them, and you can safely predict who'd be the first to suffer in that scenario....and did, greatly.

Had completed Avanti bodies been able to be delivered in good condition as to production quality, in a timely manner, Studebaker could have worked out the remaining Avanti production problems at home. (Remember, as a youth I was inhaling Automotive News' weekly reports on Studebaker's various conditions/problems, and vividly remember the above analysis from industry experts outside Studebaker; i.e, I am not regurgitating something from Studebaker's in-house Studebaker News.)

That the market existed for such a car was proven by the combined sales of almost 97,000 Buick Rivieras and Ford Thunderbirds in the 1963 model year...and that figure does not include Thunderbird roadsters or convertibles, because there was no comparable Avanti model. :D BP

BobPalma
01-15-2008, 12:36 PM
:) An interesting thread, to be sure.

Two points:

1. The seller's marketing of this particular Mustang isn't a scam because the facts are there somewhere...you just have to read the fine print.

*Is it the first Mustang built, as in a prototype that was eventually sold? NO.

*Is it the first Mustang produced as a regular production model once regular production commenced? NO.

*Is it the first Mustang delivered to a retail purchaser? Apparently, YES. (That's OK, but the hype could lead you to believe you were bidding on the first one built as a prototype or the first one built as a regular production unit, neither of which it is, but that must be deduced by reading and carefully digesting the whole written copy.)


2.The Studebaker's Avanti production problems probably resulted from Sherwood Egbert's blissful ignorance (true ignorance, "just not knowing enough," as opposed to stupidity) of automotive manufacturing realities. After all, he had pushed through the heavily-restyled 1962 Hawk in industry-unheard of record time; why not this new "sports" car?

You can be sure that Molded Fiberglass Company (not sure if that is the exact name), builders of both Avanti and Corvette bodies, was going to give The General preference and priority in all matters, should even the slightest blip appear on the "resources utilization" screen. The contract to change everything for building the all-new 1963 Sting-Ray bodies while simultaneously building the all-new Avanti bodies, undoubtedly overwhelmed the small company. Business was probably too good for them, and you can safely predict who'd be the first to suffer in that scenario....and did, greatly.

Had completed Avanti bodies been able to be delivered in good condition as to production quality, in a timely manner, Studebaker could have worked out the remaining Avanti production problems at home. (Remember, as a youth I was inhaling Automotive News' weekly reports on Studebaker's various conditions/problems, and vividly remember the above analysis from industry experts outside Studebaker; i.e, I am not regurgitating something from Studebaker's in-house Studebaker News.)

That the market existed for such a car was proven by the combined sales of almost 97,000 Buick Rivieras and Ford Thunderbirds in the 1963 model year...and that figure does not include Thunderbird roadsters or convertibles, because there was no comparable Avanti model. :D BP