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Stunt
07-08-2017, 02:05 PM
Just putting feelers out, for now. But is there anyone reputable on the west coast who could build an R3? Either on this forum, or someone that someone here knows? Pacific Northwest would be most convenient, but anywhere in the west.

Dave

Corvanti
07-08-2017, 02:11 PM
Jack Vines is the man i'd speak with - Spokane, Wa. forum "name": PackardV8.

PackardV8
07-08-2017, 03:02 PM
FWIW, if one has the core, R3 long block cleaning, machine work and assembly is very little more difficult or expensive than the regular Stude V8. R3 valves and springs are readily available. R3 pistons not so much, so I'd probably recommend custom forged pistons; about $600 more than regular Stude cast pistons. R3 cam cores can be reground. PM me if you want to discuss.

jack vines

SN-60
07-08-2017, 03:20 PM
Since Studebaker R3 heads are completely unique, and would unfortunately be next to impossible to obtain, building what could be considered an 'authentic' copy of the original Studebaker R3 type engine really isn't possible. :(

That being said, Stude V8's considerably more powerful than the original R3 types have been built over the last few years, however, they can't (or shouldn't) be referred to as Studebaker R3's!

bezhawk
07-08-2017, 03:58 PM
R3 heads can, and have been made. Bad ones in aluminum, and better ones in iron (re welded standard) complete with the larger ports, and fake numbers if that is your thing. I don't give a damn about numbers as long as the performance is there, or IF YOU ARE WORKING ON AN ORIGINAL R3 CAR. (read that last sentence again). All it takes is the bucks. Last one we had it took $15k to do. Better parts than stock R3 are out there. Despite anyone that may holler differently.

Stunt
07-08-2017, 04:08 PM
Thanks for the responses so far. Not so interested in authentically R3, but something more powerful, and more importantly, with better oil distribution, especially at high RPM's, than my current standard 289 w/ 63/64 style supercharger.

Jack Vines, PM sent.

And Bezhawk, your area code is Missouri - is that where you're located?

bezhawk
07-08-2017, 04:14 PM
St. Louis yes.
In fact right down the street from where we had the national meet a few years ago. Less than a mile.

Stunt
07-08-2017, 04:26 PM
St. Louis yes.
In fact right down the street from where we had the national meet a few years ago. Less than a mile.

Okay, thanks. Hoping to find someone I can somewhat easily drive my existing engine to and pick up whatever comes out of this, rather than shipping, but will keep you in mind if no such options seem right.

SN-60
07-08-2017, 06:58 PM
R3 heads can, and have been made. Bad ones in aluminum, and better ones in iron (re welded standard) complete with the larger ports, and fake numbers if that is your thing. I don't give a damn about numbers as long as the performance is there, or IF YOU ARE WORKING ON AN ORIGINAL R3 CAR. (read that last sentence again). All it takes is the bucks. Last one we had it took $15k to do. Better parts than stock R3 are out there. Despite anyone that may holler differently.

I really doubt that owners of authentic R3 Studebaker V8's care about "Better parts than stock" Brad! ;)

bezhawk
07-08-2017, 07:07 PM
6545265453I had much better parts used in B61. Pistons , Titanium valves, and retainers, a better grind high lift cam, and a custom higher boost impeller. Also ARP fasteners. Why skimp? Made more power with less stress on parts. Your choice. Engineering didn't stop when Granatelli stopped working on Studebakers.
BTW. the forgetrue old pistons went on to be modified and installed in the R5 engine of Greg Cone. Look at the pictures of the head....massive rust, the cylinders had to be bored to clean it up even though the engine was basically NOS inside. Every engine is different as to what it needs during any rebuild.

SN-60
07-08-2017, 07:12 PM
I had much better parts used in B61. Pistons , Titanium valves, and retainers, a better grind high lift cam, and a custom higher boost impeller. Also ARP fasteners. Why skimp? Made more power with less stress on parts. Your choice. Engineering didn't stop when Granatelli stopped working on Studebakers.

Engineering didn't stop when Augie and Fred Duesenberg produced their SJ model either!.....Would you throw your "Better than original" parts in one of THOSE engines too Brad???

bezhawk
07-08-2017, 07:29 PM
Engineering didn't stop when Augie and Fred Duesenberg produced their SJ model either!.....Would you throw your "Better than original" parts in one of THOSE engines too Brad???Yes I would! especially if warranted during a rebuild!Just what do you think a restoration or rebuild means? If the water jacket was corroded through, would you cover it up in silicone because it was an original part, or would you replace it with a new manufacture?
If you know Duesenbergs, the side of the block casting is covered with aluminum plate(s)
Replaced those unusable in my engine forge true pistons with these Diamond forged racing pistons.65454

spokejr
07-08-2017, 08:19 PM
Engineering didn't stop when Augie and Fred Duesenberg produced their SJ model either!.....Would you throw your "Better than original" parts in one of THOSE engines too Brad???

Actually Ed, most do. Duesenberg owners want the best they can find and original parts are harder to find than rocking horse $#!t so upgrading is par for the course. If it doesn't show there is no foul seen and since the major components that do show are made of un-obtainium, what ever can improve reliabilty is a good thing.

SN-60
07-09-2017, 09:32 AM
Actually Ed, most do. Duesenberg owners want the best they can find and original parts are harder to find than rocking horse $#!t so upgrading is par for the course. If it doesn't show there is no foul seen and since the major components that do show are made of un-obtainium, what ever can improve reliabilty is a good thing.

Point taken Ken!:)....If the original parts are impossible to obtain, or if they have deteriorated to the point where they're unusable, modern replacements make complete sense to use.

What irks me is folks who go on and on about how much better their new parts are than what the factory originally used.....Whether that's true or not is completely irrelevant,...what's important, I feel, is to label this modern, 'improved' Studebaker engine for what it is...a modern improved Studebaker V8, NOT an R3 or an R4 engine...............Those labels should be reserved for the REAL DEAL!!!

bezhawk
07-09-2017, 09:54 AM
There is no "real deal". Every engine was hand built and slightly different. So you're saying any rebuilt R3 or R4 engine is no longer the "real deal"? The engine I pointed out most certainly was a Paxton built serial number B61 GENUINE R3. I guess it's now just a boat anchor scrap metal, because it has been bought back to life after sitting rusted for 20 years?
My bad.

Guido
07-09-2017, 10:10 AM
There is no "real deal". Every engine was hand built and slightly different. So you're saying any rebuilt R3 or R4 engine is no longer the "real deal"? The engine I pointed out most certainly was a Paxton built serial number B61 GENUINE R3. I guess it's now just a boat anchor scrap metal, because it has been bought back to life after sitting rusted for 20 years?
My bad.

Maybe your critic could post pictures of an engine HE has rebuilt himself so we can see his work...

bezhawk
07-09-2017, 10:17 AM
Maybe he can pick on Ted Harbit, or George Krem....they both have wrenched on R3 engines. I'm an easier target that's for sure. He knows better to go there (as do I).;)

Corley
07-09-2017, 10:45 AM
And once again, a perfectly simple and honest request for information deteriorates into a stupid "my old man can beat up your old man" shouting match. This forum is the best, and also the worst. Best because there is such a wealth of information available to any interested party. Worst, because of constant attacks and sniping, and insistence on "I am right", "my way or the hiway" attitudes.

Seems to me that people should be allowed their opinion without being attacked, no matter what side you are on. This is the main reason that I've dropped out of this forum for extended periods, I just get tired of the sniping. Seems to be pretty much the same user ID's involved in attacks a lot of the time.

"Can't we all just get along?"

StudeDave57
07-09-2017, 10:57 AM
Point taken Ken! :) ....If the original parts are impossible to obtain, or if they have deteriorated to the point where they're unusable, modern replacements make complete sense to use.
What irks me is folks who go on and on about how much better their new parts are than what the factory originally used.....Whether that's true or not is completely irrelevant,...what's important, I feel, is to label this modern, 'improved' Studebaker engine for what it is...a modern improved Studebaker V8, NOT an R3 or an R4 engine...............Those labels should be reserved for the REAL DEAL!!!

Write the check, and/or do the work.
That way YOU can call it whatever you want.

In the meantime- the folks actually writing the checks and/or doing the work are gonna do it their way.

And you know what?
They're gonna call it whatever THEY want to.
They earned that right... ;) :D :!:
:cheers:



Seems to me that people should be allowed their opinion without being attacked, no matter what side you are on.
This is the main reason that I've dropped out of this forum for extended periods, I just get tired of the sniping.
Seems to be pretty much the same user ID's involved in attacks a lot of the time.

Yup, yup, and yup.

sweetolbob
07-09-2017, 12:13 PM
Might I suggest that the folks replying to posts they think are trolling/sniping just quit posting to the protagonists reply's. Pretty soon they'll need to answer themselves which takes all the fun out of it.

It seems some of you folks have raised you expectations lately. There's usually only one solution for that. Lower them!!

Bob

Mike Van Veghten
07-09-2017, 12:30 PM
Ha...Corley beat me to it...
What's with all the crap everyone.

In reality, it boils down to a set of heads, exhaust and intake manifold...period.
No oiling changes that I've ever heard, a tad higher compression...big deal, all of it.

Just find the parts desired, find a quality shop and write a check...not a big deal.

And performance wise, with the lack of a pair of "good" R3 cylinder heads, a couple of us, in Stude-land can port a standard head to outflow a stock R3 head. So if performance is the desire, finding the aforementioned un-obtanium isn't that big a requirement. If "having" said R3 parts is the big deal...nother story completely.

Mike

SN-60
07-09-2017, 04:31 PM
Just came back from a G-R-E-A-T car show in Dedham, Mass!!:!:.....PERFECT New England weather!!!.....And I see that the 'usual suspects' (StudeDave57, sweetolbob, guido) posted their typical B.S. (We can count on THAT crew to ALWAYS try to stir the pot!!:()

Just remember this folks...If the engine in question did not originate at Studebaker/Paxton as an R3 or R4 engine....THEN IT ISN'T ONE!!!......I don't know, perhaps the engine in question is ten times more powerful than a Granatelli R3 or R4....however..... IT'S NOT THE REAL DEAL....AND NEVER WILL BE!

It's too bad for all Stude fans that Studebaker folded before more of those engines were produced.......SN-60

StudeDave57
07-09-2017, 07:05 PM
(We can count on THAT crew to ALWAYS try to stir the pot!!:( )

Re-read the thread Ed.
You started 'stirring' first. :yeahright:

Don't like the heat?
Stay outta the kitchen.
:cheers:





StudeDave '57 :cool:

Corvanti
07-09-2017, 07:16 PM
gawd, the OP just wanted someone near him (Washington) to build him a R-3 "tribute" or "clone" type (post #6). does that make make you happy, Ed? i doubt it...

Alan
07-09-2017, 08:44 PM
Mike, The R3 oil pump was taller in the gears than the stock Stude pump. And Jack Vines is just a few hours drive from Dave, so it is a win, win situation.

SilverHawkDan
07-09-2017, 09:33 PM
If you decide to really step up the performance then ditch the old Paxton and purchase my new Paxton Novi 2000. I also have most of the pieces you will need to make it fit your engine. PM me if interested.
Dan

SN-60
07-09-2017, 10:00 PM
gawd, the OP just wanted someone near him (Washington) to build him a R-3 "tribute" or "clone" type (post #6). does that make make you happy, Ed? i doubt it...

You're imagining things Kerry:ohmy:...the OP said nothing about a 'tribute' engine!...He asked if someone could build him an 'R3 engine'....and frankly, the original parts needed to build a true R3 are NLA.....He may as well be told that now.

How about trolling somewhere else now Kerry???....PLEASE!!!

ddub
07-09-2017, 10:35 PM
What I assumed when I read the original post is that Stunt was looking for someone to build an engine to R3 specs, no?

SN-60
07-09-2017, 10:43 PM
What I assumed when I read the original post is that Stunt was looking for someone to build an engine to R3 specs, no?

Not really Don!....He did not ask if someone could build up a Studebaker engine to 'R3 specs'....What the OP asked is if someone on the west coast could build him an 'R3 engine'....a feat that, in reality, would be next to impossible to accomplish.

And yes, those super-rare original Studebaker R3 type cast iron heads would indeed be the 'key' to the entire project.....Ed :)

alaipairod
07-09-2017, 10:46 PM
Just putting feelers out, for now. But is there anyone reputable on the west coast who could build an R3? Either on this forum, or someone that someone here knows? Pacific Northwest would be most convenient, but anywhere in the west.

Dave
I'm having my '57 GH PS engine done by Vellios Machine Shop, in Lawndale Ca.
Give Harry a call, talk to him about your needs..........310.643.8540....Tell him Rodney referred you........

drrotor
07-09-2017, 11:57 PM
Speaking of the Northwest, you might also consider giving a call to Pacific Auto Machine in Renton, Wa. 425-226-0930 Talk to Garry. They have been building Studebaker engines for many many years. They do all my machine work. Their ad appears in our local SDC chapter newsletter every month. I also have my cams ground at Delta Camshaft in Tacoma 800-562-5500 They have all the cam profiles for racing and performance Studes, and have helped with the builds of several famous Bonneville Salt Studebakers. These are proven local vendors with high reputations.

Stunt
07-10-2017, 04:32 AM
I'm not on this forum super often, but enough that I shoulda known better than even mention the term R3!

In any case, my first and second posts here somewhat contradict each other, so maybe everyone's right. But what I'm looking for is something more along the lines of an R3 than an R2, meaning supercharged, and more care put into correctly building a fast engine than just slapping on a supercharger and an R2 cam, which is what I have right now. I ended up making that more clear in my second post. So what I really should've said is, who on the west coast can build a sturdy Stude V8 street engine with some good power using the SN60 supercharger that I already have. I don't need it to be an R3 clone or tribute.

Drroter, thanks for the info. Has Pacific Auto Machine done performance work on Studes that you know of? They're certainly pretty close by. And yes, I'm familiar with Delta. They ground me a mild slant 6 cam for my 63 Dart about 15 years ago, and ground my Stude cam to R2 specs more recently. What a great shop!

Dan, thanks for mentioning the Novi 2000, but I'll probably stick with the SN60, since I already have it and all the necessary parts.

The other thing R3's had that I like is the windage tray in the oil pan. It seems like my engine is starving for oil at high RPM's. The windage tray was designed to alleviate this somewhat, correct? I think the R3 oil pump was a little longer because they had 6 quart oil pans, but I don't think the pump operated any better than the stock one.
Are there other things that people do to improve the oiling on Stude V8's? It's a somewhat big concern for me.

64studeavanti
07-10-2017, 04:45 AM
Any of the 'R' oil pans have the windage tray
There is also a baffle that bolts to one of the main bearing caps. As far as oiling goes, the later heads (570 and 582) had larger drain holes to help keep the oil from pooling in the rocker area.

Stunt
07-10-2017, 05:02 AM
Any of the 'R' oil pans have the windage tray
There is also a baffle that bolts to one of the main bearing caps. As far as oiling goes, the later heads (570 and 582) had larger drain holes to help keep the oil from pooling in the rocker area.

Ah - I thought I had read something about the drain holes and the baffle before, but couldn't find the info again. Thanks for this!

Is there any rough consensus out there as to whether these oiling improvements were helpful? And are there better, more modern improvements easily available?

DieselJim
07-10-2017, 05:32 AM
The stock oil pan can be modified to the R type. Phil Harris or Myers Studebaker have the parts. I have done a couple of them.

64studeavanti
07-10-2017, 06:18 AM
If you want an 'R' pan, I have a couple of spares.

JoeHall
07-10-2017, 06:36 AM
To the OP,
If you want to get around oil related problems, i.e. oil going to the topside faster than it can return to the pan, you might simply wanna slow the RPMs down. Since you are going to the extent you are, a 5-speed transmission would give you the gears for burning up the race track, and an upper gear for all other driving experiences. You have not mentioned what year/model Stude you are working on, buta 5-speed would go nicely in just about any 53 or later Stude. Just an idea.

PackardV8
07-10-2017, 10:12 AM
Is there any rough consensus out there as to whether these oiling improvements were helpful?

At the same time the drain back holes were enlarged, the rocker shafts and rocker arms were changed to restrict the volume of oil being pumped into the rocker area. These two changes did solve the worst of the problem; well enough for anything this side of Bonneville.

jack vines

tsenecal
07-10-2017, 10:21 AM
I read an article on Racing Studebaker site, about filling in all of the depressions in the lifter valley. Couldn't find the article again but they used some type of metal impregnated epoxy, and they claimed that it sped the oil return to the holes at the rear of the valley. If interested you might try searching for it.

Alan
07-10-2017, 11:58 AM
Dave, it all depends on what you are using this engine for. Drag Racing, 1/8 or 1/4. Just a little bit of power around town to put the ricers in place. Or Bonnie. The R3 pan is 1.100" deeper than stock. The gears on the R3 pump are .125" taller than stock for more volume and the oil pump pick up tube is an inch longer to get closer to the bottom of the pan. For drag racing I put a 45 degree angle horse collar baffle half way up the back of the pan to keep the oil off the rear main seal and to direct the oil back to the pick up tube.

Stunt
07-10-2017, 01:59 PM
Cool, thanks for the further info, everyone - this is very helpful.

And Joe Hall, yeah, guess I neglected to mention, but this is a '61 Hawk. I've been curious about putting in a 5-speed, like the TKO 500. Hard to get a handle on how nuts of a job that is though. Certainly beyond my own mechanical expertise, and sometimes tough to find a shop willing to do that kind of swap. Have you done a 5-speed swap before? Any insight?

Alan
07-10-2017, 02:55 PM
Now you are right up my alley. I have done many. I keep 2 or 3 TKO 500's under my work bench for when I need one in a hurry. But like skinning cats there are many ways to do it.

Stunt
07-11-2017, 01:31 PM
Alan, good to know! Sending you a PM.

t walgamuth
07-11-2017, 02:53 PM
And once again, a perfectly simple and honest request for information deteriorates into a stupid "my old man can beat up your old man" shouting match. This forum is the best, and also the worst. Best because there is such a wealth of information available to any interested party. Worst, because of constant attacks and sniping, and insistence on "I am right", "my way or the hiway" attitudes.

Seems to me that people should be allowed their opinion without being attacked, no matter what side you are on. This is the main reason that I've dropped out of this forum for extended periods, I just get tired of the sniping. Seems to be pretty much the same user ID's involved in attacks a lot of the time.

"Can't we all just get along?"

Here here! I'll be brewing up a batch of hot chocolate, buttered popcorn and we can all sing Kumbayah at 500 pm.;)

We have some sticklers here on authenticity and there are the same over at the Mercedes forum where people go off on being sure to always replace both brake calipers at the same time because the factory service manual says so.

Well the FSM was written for factory service technicians not hobbyist with all the liability and need to make a profit associated with automotive service business.

The cars are often 30 to 40 years old and who knows if the caliper is factory or has already been changed twice? My policy has always been to fix what is broken. I do replace shocks in pairs and brake pads in pairs but it all depends on the situation.

There is room for reasonableness, IMHO.

You know?

bezhawk
07-11-2017, 03:15 PM
I just finished a TKO 600 in a customers car. I chose the 600 because the standard 500 low ratio is 3.33, and the 600 is 2.89 or there abouts. I used a 3.92 twin traction with Mosier axles, and didn't want him to have to shift in 5 ft. Also there are two different overdrive ratios. I also used the QuickTime scatter shield bell housing, and a Centerforce dual friction clutch. I used the stock clutch arm to actuate a hydraulic clutch master cylinder to a hydraulic pull back slave cylinder hooked to the Chevy style clutch fork. This gives you adjustability, and if there is ever a leak it is not inside on the clutch facing, and you don't have to pull the transmission.

PackardV8
07-11-2017, 03:39 PM
This gives you adjustability, and if there is ever a leak it is not inside on the clutch facing, and you don't have to pull the transmission.Getting OT, and I agree with the theory, but in practice, I keep coming across most all OEMs some years back choose to use the hydraulic throwout bearings and warranting them for 50,000 miles or whatever. Your opinions and results may vary.

jack vines

bezhawk
07-11-2017, 05:04 PM
Many reviews on Summit, Jegs, and Speedway all showed problems with just about every brand, so I went the cautious route.

PackardV8
07-11-2017, 05:29 PM
Many reviews on Summit, Jegs, and Speedway all showed problems with just about every brand, so I went the cautious route.

Agree, I wouldn't go with a hot rod brand. I chose to use the OEM GM truck unit. They're more likely to be durable.

jack vines

Stunt
07-12-2017, 09:17 PM
Good info, thanks Bezhawk and Jack.

I've read people saying that the TKO 600 is larger than a T-10 and may require some cutting to fit in a Hawk. Did you find that to be the case, Bez?
And do you know if you can you get different ratios for the rest of the gears, too, not just O/D?

bezhawk
07-12-2017, 09:35 PM
I put it in an Avanti, so with that tight tunnel I'd think a Hawk would have more room. Do a google search, I believe the 500, and 600 are the same case, and the difference is the shafts and gearing.

R3studee
07-13-2017, 03:44 PM
A couple of quick thoughts with all due respect.....

The statement that there are no "real deal" R-3s is ridiculous as I have owned a half a dozen, and make no mistake they were all quite real. These engines were hand built with exactly the same parts except for a cam option. Sure, some were balanced better or had casting differences, but these engines are all factory pieces hand built in the racing arm of the company - PAXTON products. I equate this division to Chrysler Pacifica or Fords SVO - Special Vehicle Operations, where engines are custom built for racing far away from any assembly line.

These weren't even offered until the final hour of the companies history, and if the company survived a couple more years there would be many, many more built than the 120 or that made it out the door (yes, I am including the R4 in these numbers which are rumored to account for 6 to 14 engines and I actually have one as well). The R4 is an R3 with taller pistons, a different induction system and of course no little orange huffer....all else including the cam is the same.

I am by no means trying to chime in and join the piss pot, but as an owner of multiple "B" engines, I am offended by any statement demeaning these ground breaking and ultra reliable motors or their authenticity. Funny, how you never hear an actual owner of these motors knocking them.......

That being said, I wonder how anyone could question their reliability and performance when they ran 178.5 MPH at Bonneville making them the WORLDS fastest production vehicles and blasting 29 records in the process. Hell, the R5 hit 199 MPH in horrible conditions. DO NOT forget the fact that these were not only high speed record breakers, but they set MAJOR endurance records too if you research them. Its been a while, but to my recollection these cars set records for endurance as they were run ALL OUT and almost nonstop for something like 8 hours with ZERO failure.......check it out its all true. Years ahead of their time and operating on a shoestring budget, their accomplishments were almost miraculous.

Another fact......George Krems R3 challenger is a BONE STOCK and CERTIFIED engine, shattering the pavement as it rips through the quarter mile in the mid 12s (faster than anything but a select few like the legendary HEMI Cuda). So fast in fact, that the brand X guys pushed Ted for an engine tear down and when it passed, they said the blower was modified. Ted just so happened to have an extra and said go ahead and test the one I'm running......I believe it came through at 4lbs boost.

Don't get me wrong, modern pistons are OBVIOUSLY better as many other parts such as connecting rods, rod bolts, etc. But that by no means in hell suggest the old parts were subpar, especially for their time. The whole friggin engine was forged for goodness sake........find me any brand X that could boast that in 1963! I will aslo agree with BEZHAWK that it is much better to retro fit a blown engine or block that is missing parts, than to let it drift into obscurity. Part R3 or R3 modified by necessity is good for history as another survives from the limited list, but I would never "BUILD" a modified R3 if the parts were all there, nor would I blast its endurance integrity, as I wouldn't have to due to the fact that these monsters will satisfy 99.9% of the muscle car enthusiasts.

I have taken my motor to 8000 RPM multiple times, going sideways in my Avanti at 30 MPH and have NEVER had a problem. Ted will tell you he put over 2000 runs down the quarter mile at FULL THROTTLE in the Chicken Hawk over 30 years and only went through 2 engines (the third was a blown remote oil line failure I believe). Most of these runs had twin turbochargers to boot, and he will attest the whole bottom end of the engine was BONE STOCK.

Again, this forum is great and most all of the guys on here are too. I am normally a lurker, but get so tired of every newfound expert tell it like it is, when the bonafied racers, historians and owners sit back and have to chuckle.

By the way, as to the oil modifications that are argued didn't exist, no one yet has mentioned that B series engines had smaller oil passages in the block than all other Stude V8s to restrict the flow of oil and keep more oil in the bottom end of that oversized, windaged trayed, oil pan.

In closing;

Clones are great!

Tributes are great!

Retro mods are great!

But the "HOLY GRAIL" R3s are the GREATEST! If nothing else, they are certainly the "REAL DEAL"! Built by OUR special vehicle operations team, installed in FACTORY race cars......They are OUR hemi motors, OUR finest hour, OUR Legacy.

SN-60
07-13-2017, 05:46 PM
I think that as time goes on more 'car' people will realize the importance of original Studebaker R3 and R4 engines....REAL ones of course!

It's troubling when some auto restorers confuse the issue by making the statement "There are no REAL DEAL R3 engines"!!

Clones. tributes, etc., with 'normal' Studebaker cast iron cylinder heads subjected to major surgery are fine if you wish to go that route......but PLEASE do not call these modified Studebaker V8's 'R3 engines'!

Folks 'in the know' who own or have owned R3 and or R4 engines would REALLY APPRECIATE IT if you stop 'diluting the brand' by referring to these highly modified creations as R3 or R4 Studebaker engines!...SN-60

bezhawk
07-13-2017, 06:23 PM
Perhaps my choice of word "real deal" is poor. What I meant is each engine was not just an assembly line product. Each one was had built, and even the cc's of the combuston chambers was stamped on the center exhaust port. The engines were meant for racing, and racing only, even though they were quite streetable. They were not sold with a warranty. IF, and that is a big if future production had continued, then changes would have been implemented to run them down regular production tooling. You can't claim that hand built is good profit making practice. Ed loves to claim that the work I did on a B numbered Paxton built R3 is no longer an R3 because the factory parts were not used in bringing it back to life. I take strong exception to that, and so would anyone that owned it.
You might want to ask a little more insistent while claiming some famous R3s running at the pure stocks are in fact stock. Smoky Yunick had a saying, and it is 100% true. I am not so stupid as to take on a legend as people have their minds made up, no matter what is true.

SN-60
07-13-2017, 06:29 PM
Perhaps my choice of word "real deal" is poor. What I meant is each engine was not just an assembly line product. Each one was had built, and even the cc's of the combuston chambers was stamped on the center exhaust port. The engines were meant for racing, and racing only, even though they were quite streetable. They were not sold with a warranty. IF, and that is a big if future production had continued, then changes would have been implemented to run them down regular production tooling. You can't claim that hand built is good profit making practice. Ed loves to claim that the work I did on a B numbered Paxton built R3 is no longer an R3 because the factory parts were not used in bringing it back to life. I take strong exception to that, and so would anyone that owned it.

If it doesn't have the rare R3 heads on it then that fact would need to be pointed out if that Avanti is ever resold....If it DID HAVE the correct heads, then there would be no 'Stories'.....Agreed?

PS...It pleases me that you now seem to understand that there are 'REAL DEAL' R3-4 Studebaker engines out there! :)

bezhawk
07-13-2017, 06:47 PM
65572655736557465575
If it doesn't have the rare R3 heads on it then that fact would need to be pointed out if that Avanti is ever resold....If it DID HAVE the correct heads, then there would be no 'Stories'.....Agreed?

PS...It pleases me that you now seem to understand that there are 'REAL DEAL' R3-4 Studebaker engines out there! :)It DID, AND DOES IN FACT HAVE R3 HEADS. I never said it did not YOU DID. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:......(yes you warrant 5 frowny faces)

SN-60
07-13-2017, 07:01 PM
65572655736557465575It DID, AND DOES IN FACT HAVE R3 HEADS. I never said it did not YOU DID. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:......(yes you warrant 5 frowny faces)

That's GREAT!...It DOES have the correct heads!!....so what are you talking about?? (non-factory parts)... :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

11SecAvanti
07-13-2017, 08:55 PM
Didn't the early B series engines have modified standard heads? And bored to make 299 cubes? And running changes were made later with better heads and intake. Thus B stamping of the blocks (120+) gives the clearest classification of early and later R-3 engines. Early 63 and later 63 Avanti's had "running changes" and so did the R-3 engines.

SN-60
07-13-2017, 10:14 PM
Didn't the early B series engines have modified standard heads? And bored to make 299 cubes? And running changes were made later with better heads and intake. Thus B stamping of the blocks (120+) gives the clearest classification of early and later R-3 engines. Early 63 and later 63 Avanti's had "running changes" and so did the R-3 engines.

That's true!...At least some of the early 'A' series 299 CI Studebaker R3 engines, such as the one in 1963 Avanti 63R-1025, used 'Granatelli reworked' R2 cylinder heads. :)

PackardV8
07-13-2017, 11:40 PM
In such a discussion, it might be instructive to recall the famous red '63 Avanti which ran 171 and change at Bonneville had no R3 parts on it. The engine was a Granatelli-shop-built 299" with every part modified production or aftermarket.

jack vines

64Avanti
07-14-2017, 12:46 AM
Speaking of the Northwest, you might also consider giving a call to Pacific Auto Machine in Renton, Wa. 425-226-0930 Talk to Garry. They have been building Studebaker engines for many many years. They do all my machine work. Their ad appears in our local SDC chapter newsletter every month. I also have my cams ground at Delta Camshaft in Tacoma 800-562-5500 They have all the cam profiles for racing and performance Studes, and have helped with the builds of several famous Bonneville Salt Studebakers. These are proven local vendors with high reputations.

What famous Bonneville Studebakers? Just curious.

64Avanti
07-14-2017, 01:00 AM
Just remember this folks...If the engine in question did not originate at Studebaker/Paxton as an R3 or R4 engine....THEN IT ISN'T ONE!!!......I don't know, perhaps the engine in question is ten times more powerful than a Granatelli R3 or R4....however..... IT'S NOT THE REAL DEAL....AND NEVER WILL BE!

It's too bad for all Stude fans that Studebaker folded before more of those engines were produced.......SN-60

I fully agree with the last statement. Even worse we missed out on the larger displacement engines for which the heads were designed! One more year and we would have had many larger displacement engines with the "R3" heads.

Now if those real R3 engines from Paxton didn't have R3 rods are they the real deal? Quite a few sold as R3 engines didn't have R3 rods. Or if the heads were not ported were they real R3's? The drawings clearly state they are to be ported. Many sold by Paxton were not and therefore those heads do not conform to the drawings.

Stunt
07-15-2017, 07:07 PM
Bez, you're right, cases are the same. I was under the impression that the 600 was a 6-speed transmission, and bigger, but it's just a gearing difference, and the 600 gearing does seem better. Though I wish there was an O/D gear available that was more like .70. But nonetheless, seems like a pretty good way to go. Do you remember offhand which O/D ratio you guys chose for the customer's car with the 3.92 rear end? I'm assuming the .64 rather than the .82. What engine was in there, and did you drive it at freeway speeds?

Alan
07-15-2017, 07:27 PM
Dave, It depends on how you will use it. For putting around town and a stop light fun or two. The 500 is better and the one I use for Drag Racing. The 600 has closer gears and is good if you are going to race it on a long track with a lot of turns or have an engine that puts out more than 500 ft/lbs of torque. For the whimpy Stude you will be better off with the lower first gear of the 500.

bezhawk
07-15-2017, 08:59 PM
Bez, you're right, cases are the same. I was under the impression that the 600 was a 6-speed transmission, and bigger, but it's just a 65652gearing difference, and the 600 gearing does seem better. Though I wish there was an O/D gear available that was more like .70. But nonetheless, seems like a pretty good way to go. Do you remember offhand which O/D ratio you guys chose for the customer's car with the 3.92 rear end? I'm assuming the .64 rather than the .82. What engine was in there, and did you drive it at freeway speeds? I was under the impression it is a .68 OD, so that is why I used the 600 with the 3.92 rear. Made custom billet supercharger mount, and R3 airbox. My ported heads, and R2+ cam. .040 over full dish pistons. will move out smartly and leave sticky black tire marks as long as you keep your foot in it.65653

bezhawk
07-15-2017, 09:03 PM
Another R3 I had a hand in....http://bezautoalchemy.com/r3-avanti-engine-roars-to-life-again/

Stunt
07-16-2017, 03:29 AM
I was under the impression it is a .68 OD, so that is why I used the 600 with the 3.92 rear.

It's possible they've used different gear ratios at different times, but currently, the Tremec website shows 500's having .68 O/D ratio, and 600's being available with either .64 or .82.
http://www.tremec.com/menu.php?m=103

R3studee
07-16-2017, 12:12 PM
Another R3 I had a hand in....http://bezautoalchemy.com/r3-avanti-engine-roars-to-life-again/

Car looks amazing Brad, great job! I would trust you with one of my cars any day........

For what its worth, I agree with you that your engine is still an R3 all the way, just modified out of necessity that's all. As long as the owners are honest with the next buyer, you did the world a favor by keeping another one of those "unobtainium engines" alive and kickin. Did you rebuild it yourself? Machine work too?

I would have done exactly the same thing, unless of course the original parts were still available somewhere. Last time I checked, they werent too easy to locate, lol. If someone has the deep pockets though, any Stude V8 block with minimal core shift can go faster than an R3 when "built", so I would go that route (and I already have) while saving history for future generations.

In fact, I am faced with a similar dilemma. I have a totally original R4 (B76 I think) and it needs a rebuild. Those damn pistons are boat anchors with their compression ratio, so I have considered shaving off the domes and getting it to run on pump gas. I could keep it an R4 that way or even change the induction system to R3 and have a much faster motor as lets face it, the R4 was designed for air conditioning.....not racing. I just cant come around to changing it so far as its original down to the air cleaner.

Maybe I should just sell it as I will never use an engine with that high of compression anyway.

bezhawk
07-16-2017, 01:37 PM
I don't know of anyone that could or would try to run a "real deal" R4 on the crap that passes for gas nowdays. I can rework the carbs to work much better on the street, and the changes are reversible. I don't know off hand if you mill of the tops of the pistons, whether the pistons will have enough meat to be strong enough. I have seen failures of the ForgeTrue pistons, where the skirt breaks also. Diamond Racing pistons is one of the last domestically made forged piston manufacturers. much tougher than cast. No, I did not do the build on B61, but over saw the restoration of that engine, and had final say on the parts, and cam choice. I was busy with three simultaneous restorations at that time, and DID do everything else including body, paint, wiring, frame, suspension you name it. I can sew, but don't do seats. I can do anything else related to a restoration including transmissions, and now even small parts plating. Engine building machinery like new modern boring and honeing equipment can run into 100s of thousands of dollars. Only a very few shops have any engine equipment, and it is very old stuff, that can't be as accurate as newer computer controlled machines. I don't trust the aptitude of almost any machine shop, so one that has been around a long time and invests in new equipment, and training is one that gets my business.

SN-60
07-16-2017, 01:48 PM
R3studee.....You mentioned "Saving history for future generations"....can you please explain that statement?

To me, it kind of sounds like you're saying THIS (our?) generation may as well skip being concerned with Studebaker history....and simply let future generations pick it up again and be concerned with it.

Not trying to put words in your mouth, however, once again, would you please explain your thoughts to us?....Thanks!...SN-60 :)

R3studee
07-16-2017, 11:24 PM
R3studee.....You mentioned "Saving history for future generations"....can you please explain that statement?

To me, it kind of sounds like you're saying THIS (our?) generation may as well skip being concerned with Studebaker history....and simply let future generations pick it up again and be concerned with it.

Not trying to put words in your mouth, however, once again, would you please explain your thoughts to us?....Thanks!...SN-60 :)

Im saying its much better to build a normal Stude engine with aftermarket parts than to change anything on an original R3......saving them intact as possible for future generations(Not necessarily for any particular generation) as so few exist.

I actually knew an old man, original R3 owner from Paxton, built the hell out of his R3 including fuel injection. Lost track of him as he prolly passed and the engine is who knows where now. Wanted to return that one back to stock......arghhh

Im fine with replacing broken or missing parts in an R3 with aftermarket parts though, as its much better than bragging you have a block in storage and it never running again.

DEEPNHOCK
07-17-2017, 07:12 AM
Interesting comments.
People with replacement knees, hips, and teeth bitching about aftermarket parts...

Leave the originals alone, put them in museums.....
and let the observers pine away looking at them....no touching..

Take whatever junk is left, build the crap out of it, race it, and make noise and go fast.....
and let the observers pine away looking at them....no touching...

Then, write disparigingly about them on all the forums...
Tis' the thing to do!:rolleyes:

SN-60
07-17-2017, 08:03 AM
Im saying its much better to build a normal Stude engine with aftermarket parts than to change anything on an original R3......saving them intact as possible for future generations(Not necessarily for any particular generation) as so few exist.

I actually knew an old man, original R3 owner from Paxton, built the hell out of his R3 including fuel injection. Lost track of him as he prolly passed and the engine is who knows where now. Wanted to return that one back to stock......arghhh

Im fine with replacing broken or missing parts in an R3 with aftermarket parts though, as its much better than bragging you have a block in storage and it never running again.





Thanks for your interesting reply....and I completely agree with your assessment concerning surviving original R3-4 Studebaker/Paxton engines....and with your thoughts on building today's modified high performance Studebaker engines.

OF COURSE when an original R3-4 engine needs overhaul modern parts have to be used, (i.e. pistons, pins ,insert bearings, timing gears, gaskets, seals, etc, etc.)

It was another 'long time' Stude Forum poster who suggested that if modern internals were used in an original R3-4 then it wouldn't be an R3-4 any more....RIDICULOUS!...It's really sad some folks on this forum constantly 'grab at straws' simply to keep a debate going....(and how many times have we seen that ?????)

MY issue, now, and in the past, is when some VERY TALENTED mechanic decides to modify 'standard' Studebaker heads (for example) for the purpose of installing R3 size valves.....There's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with doing that....I think it's GREAT!...And it's entirely possible the final results may be superior to the original Granatelli part....................However, DON"T REFER TO THE RESULTING 'MODERN' HI-PO STUDE V8 AS AN R3 or an R4 ENGINE....because IT'S NOT...AND NEVER WILL BE!

Thanks for reading this...........SN-60 :)

showbizkid
07-17-2017, 09:03 AM
PLEASE work on changing your ways Jeff

Thats enough. No member here should be telling other members how they should behave. It's unacceptable.

We we are here to talk cars, in a civil and courteous manner. Let's get back to doing that.

Gunslinger
07-17-2017, 09:43 AM
To stir the pot some more...and simply as a rhetorical exercise...let's say some enterprising soul with the technical and production ability plus money decided to obtain the technical drawings or reverse-engineered some Studebaker V8 blocks and cast a number of R3 engine blocks and heads. This would be with using modern production techniques. Let's say the only visible differences would be the engine casting numbers, serial numbers and date codes. We'll leave costs out of this just for the fun of it. The same goes for aluminum R3 heads using modern flow and casting techniques and tricks. New design camshafts as well.

There are such companies doing that now with small-block Chevy engines, heads, cams, etc. They seem to be doing a good business for those wanting to build engines without resorting to dealing with GM for engines and accessories. Why can't this work for Studebaker performance guys? Again...we'll leave start-up costs and retail costs out of it.

Would this upset the purists amongst Studebaker enthusiasts? Would a completely new R3/R4 engine made from new castings, modern design and production techniques, new hi-po cylinder heads, cams, pistons, connecting rods, etc., be any less a Studebaker engine other than who made it? I know Lionel Stone tried that with aluminum heads and intakes with varying degrees of success and people want to buy those products when they can be found even if they require bench work to make them operate properly.

If someone wants a Paxton SN-60 rebuilt with new planetary balls made using the latest techniques for quality and consistency would that make the blower a genuine Studebaker? The same for parts such as wheel bearings, air and oil filters, fuel line, etc. We can take this to absurd degrees.

When you get down to it, Avanti Motors did much the same thing. They took what was essentially mostly leftover Studebaker parts and added a different engine and other detail parts and the end result was still an Avanti...unless you're a purist.

PackardV8
07-17-2017, 10:13 AM
Never say never. Not that many years ago, the Chevrolet 409" was a failed-and-forgotten lump of a short-lived-dead-end engineering exercise. Today, it's possible to build an all-aluminum-all-aftermarket 611" version which makes twice the horsepower of the best OEM 409"s.

jack vines

SN-60
07-17-2017, 11:05 AM
To stir the pot some more...and simply as a rhetorical exercise...let's say some enterprising soul with the technical and production ability plus money decided to obtain the technical drawings or reverse-engineered some Studebaker V8 blocks and cast a number of R3 engine blocks and heads. This would be with using modern production techniques. Let's say the only visible differences would be the engine casting numbers, serial numbers and date codes. We'll leave costs out of this just for the fun of it. The same goes for aluminum R3 heads using modern flow and casting techniques and tricks. New design camshafts as well.

There are such companies doing that now with small-block Chevy engines, heads, cams, etc. They seem to be doing a good business for those wanting to build engines without resorting to dealing with GM for engines and accessories. Why can't this work for Studebaker performance guys? Again...we'll leave start-up costs and retail costs out of it.

Would this upset the purists amongst Studebaker enthusiasts? Would a completely new R3/R4 engine made from new castings, modern design and production techniques, new hi-po cylinder heads, cams, pistons, connecting rods, etc., be any less a Studebaker engine other than who made it? I know Lionel Stone tried that with aluminum heads and intakes with varying degrees of success and people want to buy those products when they can be found even if they require bench work to make them operate properly.

If someone wants a Paxton SN-60 rebuilt with new planetary balls made using the latest techniques for quality and consistency would that make the blower a genuine Studebaker? The same for parts such as wheel bearings, air and oil filters, fuel line, etc. We can take this to absurd degrees.

When you get down to it, Avanti Motors did much the same thing. They took what was essentially mostly leftover Studebaker parts and added a different engine and other detail parts and the end result was still an Avanti...unless you're a purist.

I certainly would fully support what you say above......AS LONG AS THESE 'NEW' STUDE V8's, VIRTUAL TWINS TO THE 'REAL DEAL', ARE NOT REFERRED TO AS THE 'REAL DEAL' !!!.......

There's only ONE original 'Mona Lisa'.....should artists that create virtually EXACT copies of that famous painting refer to their wonderful copies as 'The Mona Lisa'?....Think about it!....SN-60 ;)

Gunslinger
07-17-2017, 11:43 AM
It's a little tougher to counterfeit the Mona Lisa...everyone knows where the original is, no matter how good a counterfeit another might be. No one will be fooled...and if they simply want a good copy to hang in their house, a copy will suffice as no one will mistake it for the original.

I also never said new build R3 engines would be referred to as the real deal. That's why I mentioned identifiable casting number, date codes and serial numbers. There will always be those who will restamp engine blocks trying to make a counterfeit...ask the Corvette crowd. There are more big block Corvettes out there with "original" engines than Chevrolet ever built. The same goes for Mopar big-block and Hemi cars. Supposedly about 70-75% of sports memorabilia on the market today is counterfeit. As long as someone perceives money to be made, there will be counterfeiters. It takes due diligence on everyone's part to not be taken in by crooks in this or any other hobby.

SN-60
07-17-2017, 12:49 PM
It's a little tougher to counterfeit the Mona Lisa...everyone knows where the original is, no matter how good a counterfeit another might be. No one will be fooled...and if they simply want a good copy to hang in their house, a copy will suffice as no one will mistake it for the original.

I also never said new build R3 engines would be referred to as the real deal. That's why I mentioned identifiable casting number, date codes and serial numbers. There will always be those who will restamp engine blocks trying to make a counterfeit...ask the Corvette crowd. There are more big block Corvettes out there with "original" engines than Chevrolet ever built. The same goes for Mopar big-block and Hemi cars. Supposedly about 70-75% of sports memorabilia on the market today is counterfeit. As long as someone perceives money to be made, there will be counterfeiters. It takes due diligence on everyone's part to not be taken in by crooks in this or any other hobby.

Very well said.