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Indyted
06-02-2017, 11:01 AM
Tomorrow, I will be looking at a 1961 Hawk. It appears that the car has been well kept over the years (garage) and has low miles. There is only one, dime-sized hole in the trunk area. The engine looks original. The car seems to be a survivor with little to no modifications.

I am not familiar with this car and what to look for to assess condition and potential problems. Any advice? What would you look for if you were thinking in buying the car?

Thanks in advance for any info or guidance that you can share!

tbredehoft
06-02-2017, 11:08 AM
In Indiana (rusts belt) look for holes under the driver's feet. Or clumsy repair there. Using a magnet look for thick plastic putty (under the paint) 3 to 6 inches in front of the back edge of the front fenders. No holes in floor, no putty in fenders? Snap it up.

Engine, does it run? if it runs, listen for knocks, clunks, etc. tap tap tap is fixable. Transmission, Manual, drives through all three (or OD) four gears. If automatic, if it drives normally, that's good enough.

Good luck there are some find cars out there yet.

52-fan
06-02-2017, 11:44 AM
You probably should slide under and take a good look. I remember a few years back someone bought a running car and then found out the frame was rusted through on one side and patched with steel angle.

StudeRich
06-02-2017, 12:11 PM
I do not know if you are looking to buy a Manual Trans. Car or not, but just know that especially on '61 Hawks, (the first year for the Manual 4 Speed T-10 Transmission Option) Cars so equipped add a BIG Plus to their Value! :!:

All Original U.S. built '61 Hawks should have a "P" Engine Serial Number 289 Engine installed, some 2 Brl. some 4 Brl.

WinM1895
06-02-2017, 12:25 PM
I do not know if you are looking to buy a Manual Trans. Car or not, but just know that especially on '61 Hawks, (the first year for the Manual 4 Speed T-10 Transmission Option) Cars so equipped add a BIG Plus to their Value! :!:

All Original U.S. built '61 Hawks should have a "P" Engine Serial Number 289 Engine installed, some 2 Brl. some 4 Brl.
Rich, wasn't 1961 the first year that Hawks were available with bucket seats?

I do know that in 1961, Studebaker actually spent some money advertising them.

One ad I recall had actor James Mason posing in front of 'his' Hawk, behind the Hawk was a Cloud II Rolls (did Mason also own this, too?).

Indyted
06-02-2017, 12:49 PM
I do not know if you are looking to buy a Manual Trans. Car or not, but just know that especially on '61 Hawks, (the first year for the Manual 4 Speed T-10 Transmission Option) Cars so equipped add a BIG Plus to their Value! :!:

All Original U.S. built '61 Hawks should have a "P" Engine Serial Number 289 Engine installed, some 2 Brl. some 4 Brl.


Thanks for the info. It is a 3-on the tree manual with overdrive. Would that indicate the T-10 transmission? I think the seller has a copy of the dealer invoice and maybe the code for transmission type. I will know tomorrow.

jclary
06-02-2017, 01:05 PM
Here's my take. If you can evaluate the car well enough to establish a "value" of what it's worth to you, and it falls within what the owner is willing to take...buy it.:) Your value, will include your judgement of reasonable dollars as it sits, an estimate of dollars to restore it to your satisfaction, and an intangible concept of how much fun you will have with it. Unless you are a flipper...resale value should never be a part of the equation. For the casual hobby collector..."investment" value is a fool's errand when buying a collector vehicle. Unless you plan to use lying as a sales tool.:( I say that because just about every ad I see for a collector car claims a huge financial loss in their investment VS sales price.:rolleyes:;)

Once you come to terms with what you are willing to pay and what the buyer accepts...buy it, have fun, and never look back.:yeahright: Have a blast,:) fix it up, and share the adventure with us.:!:

studegary
06-02-2017, 01:07 PM
I suggest paying Bob Palma to check it with you. He frequents this forum and is in the Indy area.

StudeRich
06-02-2017, 01:51 PM
Rich, wasn't 1961 the first year that Hawks were available with bucket seats?/Cut/

Yes Bill, there was the one year only WIDE Bucket Seat option without the Console and narrower seats that the '62-'66 Bucket Seat Models had.

____________________________________________________________________



Thanks for the info. It is a 3-on the tree manual with overdrive. Would that indicate the T-10 transmission? I think the seller has a copy of the dealer invoice and maybe the code for transmission type. I will know tomorrow.

I think you would know immediately if it is a 4 Speed Ted, if there is a "Thing" sticking out of the FLOOR! :D

No if it is a 3 Speed with Overdrive, it's not a 4 Speed, but that IS also a good thing. :!:

jackb
06-02-2017, 01:58 PM
a word of caution: you admit to not knowing much about Studes, and aspects to buying one. DO you have an idea of what it's worth ?? Is it $25K or $2500. ???

WinM1895
06-02-2017, 02:07 PM
Thanks for the info. It is a 3-on the tree manual with overdrive.

Would that indicate the T-10 transmission??
No.

Borg-Warner T-10 is a 4 speed. 289 w/3 speed O/D: Borg Warner T-86.

T-10 also used by GM & FoMoCo (probably others). As I recall the reverse shift pattern is different for some of these vs. the Studebaker shift pattern.

1949/59, early 1960's: FoMoCo also used the T-86, with or without O/D

Indyted
06-02-2017, 02:17 PM
a word of caution: you admit to not knowing much about Studes, and aspects to buying one. DO you have an idea of what it's worth ?? Is it $25K or $2500. ???


Thanks for the questions. I am very knowledgeable about Studebaker Avantis (I own 2 and 1 Avanti II). I am familiar where to look on steel Studies such as the frame, floor & trunk pans. I also know that Larks and Hawks will begin to rust in the vicinity of the front vents on the sides of the car (just in front of the doors).

As for the value, I have been around Avantis and Studies since 2012 and have gotten a good 'feel' regarding value and price.

wdills
06-02-2017, 03:26 PM
Having just finished a 61 Hawk, I will offer this. All of the mechanical items can be taken care of by your average car guy mechanic. The mechanicals are relatively simple, it just takes money to buy the parts and hire the right guys to do the specialized stuff such as engine or carb rebuilds.

The bigger challenge is rust. As mentioned before, look at the front floors. The worst rust is normally about where the A pillar meets the floor. Be cautious as to how far that rust goes. Replacing the floor sheet metal is fairly easy. If you have to get into the bottom of the A pillar or the body support underneath, things get more complicated. Also inspect the sheet metal that makes up the door sills. If the floor rust migrates into the sills they are more of a challenge to replace than floor sheet metal because now you have to worry about keeping everything about the car lined up while you cut out all of the stricter that is there to keep the car lined up. If you need sills, you will need rockers also.

The rear few inches of the front fenders are also bad for rust. The outside skin of the fender pinches over the inner structure along the back edge of the fender and you are left with a pinch seam right behind the tire that catches all of the moisture and crap the tire throws up at it. Check around the front fender vents. These are bad about the inner structure rusting and they rust the surrounding outer skin of the fender.

The doors like to rust where the inner structure meets the outer skin across the bottom. The little drain slots get clogged up and then they start to rot along the full length of the door. Also look carefully around the front inner edge of the door. The rounded area at the front bottom inside corner likes to rust through and the area where the lower door hinge mounts to the door is bad for rust. The worst of this rust is often on the inside of the door. The structure that captures the floating hinge bolt plate likes to rust.

The trunk lids often rust along the lower edge. If that rust goes up into the rippled section of the lid it is bad. You can probably modify and save the trunk lid but not that rippled area. I spent 2 years looking for a good rust free trunk lid for my car. I had two and neither were salvageable. The Classic Enterprise "patch" for the lower lip of the trunk lid is a joke. Don't even bother buying it.

The trunk floor around the body mount reinforcement plates is another area bad for rust. Carefully inspect the tail panel (trunk floor up to weather strip channel. The entire tail panel had to be replaced on my car. It looked perfectly solid but once I started sawing the trunk floor out the tail panel started to fall apart. The vibrations of the air saw were shaking loose the rust. The tail panel is 2 pieces welded together leaving a pocket in the middle. That pocket didn't get any type of paint at the factory and doesn't have any drains. The tail panel will just rust away from the inside out. It may look solid and not be.

The weather strip channels around the trunk are also bad for rust. Classic Enterprises now sells them as a curved piece which should fit better. When I bought mine they were straight and bending them to fit was probably the hardest part of the rust repair process.

Take a close look at the back corners of the hood. These are often bent up from people opening the hood incorrectly. These are so visible, the repair needs to be perfect. If it is not, it will show up once the new paint goes on. Classic Enterprises has reinforcement plates that you should add during the build of the car.

The side grill shells are often broken. They are pot metal so they can't be repaired. Finding a good set is getting more difficult. Be prepared to pay up if you need a replacement set.

A 3 spd overdrive car will be a more pleasant drive at todays highway speeds. I suggest you print some internet photos to take with you so you can be sure the car is complete. The previous owner of my car had removed a lot of molding and filled the holes with bondo so it would not be obvious that things were missing. I guess it was cheaper to do that than find or replace the missing shiny parts. If you could get someone that knows these cars to go with you it would be well worth it. Bob would be an excellent choice if he is available.

Good Luck

BobPalma
06-02-2017, 10:11 PM
:) Hi, Ted;

What Gary said in Post #8.

Where is the Hawk located? Around here in central Indiana? Call me on my cell if you like; I could be available after my grandson's baseball game Saturday morning: 317.331.7311. Best. :cool: BP

Indyted
06-04-2017, 12:22 PM
I saw the car yesterday. Here is what I found:



The positives:




Little rust. No observed holes in the sheet metal from looking from the inside under the car.
The floor pans were good. Studebaker applied thick tar under seal. I did notice some cracks but overall good.
Frame with little no rust. The only pack rust was in the cross member that supports the transmission.
Doors had little to no rust where the weep holes are.
The A-pillars had surface rust as then went through the body.
Engine started up with no problem.
All factory listed items were there on the car.
The 3 on the tree (my first time driving one) was a little awkward. But I will get used to if I buy. I was fun.
Overdrive works.
Interior looks original and is in very good shape. Seats, carpets, headliner all good condition.
The side vents were of rust inside and out.



The negatives:




The engine is leaking. Maybe oil pan or rear seal. Timing gear cover looked dry (no observed leaks)
The radiator is leaking from the middle section. Either a repair or a replacement.
Was repainted however not a good effort. The window moldings and chrome/stainless steel trim was masked over.
The rubber seals around all doors and windows are cracked and need replacement.
The back window is leaking.
Driving quality was "ok". Not like an Avanti. The brake pedal had resistance with applying but the braking seemed soft. Is this because the it has no power booster?
I had to move the seat all the way back to work the pedals. They all seem to stick farther out. Test drive was a little awkward in that regard.
There were some bondo repairs around the upper lip of one side vent and trunk lip (on the body). Could have been for repair dents and depressions. I inspected the steel underneath and did not see full hole bondo repairs.



Given the above, what are your thoughts? Advice?

E. Davis
06-04-2017, 12:54 PM
Depends on what he wants for it. I bought a 61 Hawk several years ago that was advertised as being in good restored shape and for the most part it was but I still managed to put over 3 grand into it before it met my standards of respectable "driver' quality. Not a show car but gets a lot of thumbs up. I guess what I am saying is it sounds like you are going to put some money in this car regardless of its present condition so factor that into your offer.

Indyted
06-04-2017, 01:15 PM
He wants $9,500 for it.

StudeRich
06-05-2017, 01:44 AM
Hard to say if that is a good value without at least seeing a picture of it. From your assessment of it's condition it may be more like a 5-6,000.00 Car or even less.

What are the Interior and Exterior Colors?

Indyted
06-05-2017, 04:30 AM
Hard to say if that is a good value without at least seeing a picture of it. From your assessment of it's condition it may be more like a 5-6,000.00 Car or even less.

What are the Interior and Exterior Colors?


White with black interior

jackb
06-05-2017, 08:52 AM
I love the GT Hawks, having owned several..... They're all over the place now and the market is saturated...especially the highest production volume 62's (my favorite model). Unless a show car, most 62's will be in the $4-7K range (I might buy one there). GL-sounds like this car is mostly original and has had some light superficial work done to it. Offer what you think fits your expectations. Personally, the Hawks ride much better than the Avantis - you'll get used to it...

Chuck this post... I thought the car was a 62'..

StudeNewby
06-05-2017, 12:34 PM
It certainly presents nicely. I would say there is some negotiating room in that price, considering the work it needs. It sounds to be in similar condition to a Lark I bought several years ago and paid about half that for. Of course, Lark vs. Hawk...

Indyted
06-05-2017, 12:44 PM
One item that needs to be addresses is the radiator. It is leaking and complete replacement or rebuilding may be likely. How much would that cost?

4jc8z
06-05-2017, 01:36 PM
I know that car. That is the car that was on craigslist in recent times. Its a nice car, but its not a low mileage survivor like purported. It was an 1980's restoration when Chuck Kenney in White Cloud, Michigan owned it. Chuck sold it to some guy in the Spring Lake area, and whereabouts were unknown until I saw it last month on Craigslist.

E. Davis
06-05-2017, 01:58 PM
I'm not crazy about the "stance" but maybe its the camera angle. If not it looks like something has been done to alter the suspension to give it a lower appearance. Radiator repair would be a minor cost in an overall restoration or even work to bring it up to driver quality. The interior doesn't appear to be stock but by and large it would be pretty hard to find a 61 Hawk needing minimal work for $9500.00. Just my opinion.

Corvanti
06-05-2017, 02:06 PM
i'd budget at least $500 for radiator repair/replacement. for a temporary "fix", you might be good for up to a year with a flush & fill plus a bottle or two of Bars Leak.

$9,500 seems a bit high. if you really want it, i'd offer around $5,500 and perhaps meet in the middle around at $7,500.

Indyted
06-05-2017, 10:22 PM
I'm not crazy about the "stance" but maybe its the camera angle. If not it looks like something has been done to alter the suspension to give it a lower appearance. Radiator repair would be a minor cost in an overall restoration or even work to bring it up to driver quality. The interior doesn't appear to be stock but by and large it would be pretty hard to find a 61 Hawk needing minimal work for $9500.00. Just my opinion.

The stance appeared to be correct however the wheels were the next size larger filling the wheel wells more. Attached are pics of the interior. Original?646666466764668

studegary
06-05-2017, 10:47 PM
White with black interior

The stripe on the rear fender should be Pearl Beige (I think that I remember the name correctly). I know that many have been painted a different color, especially on a white car. The local dealer (Knight's Garage) repainted them to match the interior on white Hawks before he put them out for sale. It is an easy thing to change.

drrotor
06-06-2017, 01:30 AM
Ow you guys are a tough crowd! $5500-$7500? No wonder the values stay low when we talk down to nice cars this way! These are rare, beautiful, classic cars that are a joy to own and drive. Good grief a lowly Ford Falcon the same year in this condition is worth $5-7K. I guess when I get around to selling my '59 Hawk I'd better not mention it here!
Well anyway, seems to me the guy's asking price isn't too far off. And '61's are a great year, buckets seats and all... and the V8/ stick/O.D. is a nice drivetrain combo. I say go for it!

BobPalma
06-06-2017, 07:40 AM
:eek: Before anyone gets carried away appraising this car from a couple of superficial exterior photos, it will be up to Ted if he wants to post maybe a half-dozen excellent, detailed undercarriage photos he sent me yesterday. :) This car has enough what I would dare say are -ahem- rust "issues," that I told him two things:

1. I'd say StudeRich's Post #18 appraisal is about right, although Rich might lower it if he examined the car in person and crawled around underneath it with a flashlight.

2. I advised Ted to not consider making any offer on this car, and to keep looking for a structurally better one. This car is definitely worth "doing" right for someone with the skills to do it and/or the wherewithal to hire it done and wait, but I don't "read" Ted's position as being either.

Ted's report of the rust situation (roughly items #1-#5 of his Post #10 report) reflects not having examined many cars that have been poorly patched and heavily undercoated to hide what is obviously a weak "tub." If this car was dismantled and the basic body ("tub") dipped in a commercial stripping facility before a full restoration was undertaken, the new owner would be -ahem- surprised at how much of the car was gone when he picked up the freshly-dipped tub, not to mention the structural integrity of any previous repairs that survived the dipping.

This is not to bad-mouth the car or my friend Ted from our local chapter, but Ted is an Avanti man not accustomed to examining steel-bodied Studebakers. As such, he's not seen the crude patching and excessive undercoating often used to conceal the realities of steel-bodied midwest Studebakers, as have most of us who have had to adjudicate these realities for the last 50 years. The salt expansion in the bat-wing pinch welds alone was enough to suggest a dose of Valium before continuing. I suppose I've seen worse; at least the bat wing was still there. ;)

(BTW: Per Gary's suggestion in Post #8 and my reply in Post #14, Ted called me Saturday morning while I was at my grandson's baseball game, before the game began. Ted and I had a long, friendly talk before he embarked on his examination mission. I'm glad he called...as he was, I'm sure.

I was unable to accompany Ted because it turned out the car was 'way up in Grand Rapids MI, over four hours north of Indianapolis! I was hoping it was in central Indiana so I could have gone along Saturday afternoon. Alas, it was not to be. :()

But the photos he took were so good :!: that I need not have gone...and we all know things always look better in photos than they really are. I would not have wanted to be on the premises and have been tempted to start peeling off layers of undercoat and start poking around with an ice pick. ;) YIKES!) :cool: BP

jclary
06-06-2017, 07:48 AM
Ow you guys are a tough crowd! $5500-$7500? No wonder the values stay low when we talk down to nice cars this way! These are rare, beautiful, classic cars that are a joy to own and drive. Good grief a lowly Ford Falcon the same year in this condition is worth $5-7K. I guess when I get around to selling my '59 Hawk I'd better not mention it here!������
Well anyway, seems to me the guy's asking price isn't too far off. And '61's are a great year, buckets seats and all... and the V8/ stick/O.D. is a nice drivetrain combo. I say go for it!

Good points. Personally, I'm a little conflicted about commenting on this thread.:confused: (and this is my second post:() First of all, I'm certainly no expert on the "objective" value of Hawks. I suspect I'm not alone (on this forum) in that regard. In fact, besides not being a "studied" expert, any of us here, are emotionally attached to anything Studebaker, or we probably wouldn't be here. Additionally, there is the aspect of "seller's viewpoint," and "buyer's viewpoint"...where the seller is attempting to present the car in its most positive light, and the buyer is trying to evaluate its worth in view of its most negative characteristics.

So, we find ourselves in an emotional quandary. Throw in the fact that it is not OUR money we are contemplating. So, while we can emotionally advise anything...the reality is that Indyted and the seller will have to hash it out between themselves. "Big boy adults" do it everyday. If I was an expert, I'd probably have a yard full of Hawks. Perhaps, some for sale.:rolleyes:;)

Edit....obviously, one of the "credible exceptions," in our motley forum crowd, was busy "posting" while I was attempting to type out my post, having morning coffee, and attempting to pretend to be paying attention to my dear wife's morning conversation at the same time.:oops:

Unlike me, Bob has a lifetime affinity for Studebakers, and an earned respect for his opinions.:) In view of that, the bottom line, it is still a deal between the seller & buyer. I have some "free" stuff I thought was a "good deal." Someday, hauling it off is going to be expensive.:ohmy::(

Indyted
06-06-2017, 01:10 PM
After looking at this car in person, I think I am going to pass on this car. Ideally, I am looking for an already restored Hawk, maybe a 300-350 point car with a 10-15 year old restoration. A car that I can enjoy and show now without a long list of things to do including a new paint job. This car does not meet what I am looking for. (I am currently doing full restorations on 2 Avantis. I want a nice car that I can drive and show now without the full restoration heartaches)

But since looked at the car in person, I would like to give everyone a good assessment of it. Overall, I think that the car is in at very good condition. But it does need work. In summary, here are the positives:

1. It is a rare and highly desirable Studebaker
2. It has less than 20,000 miles. The owner has nearly all of the registration slips of this car throughout its life. All of them, showed a car having less than 20000 miles. I did not see any inconsistencies nor a certificate claiming that the odometer was in error. I have reason to believe that the odometer is correct.
3. The car has not been modified or rat-rodded. Everything on the dealer invoice is there except for the Climatizer (AC-3098). I believed that was below the dashboard on the transmission hump.
4. I did not see any evidence that the car was in a wreck or had major body work. The panel lines look smooth and unbuckled as they should brand new.

Now the negatives:

1. It does need body work. Places I saw rust were the rear trunk bottom lip, the inside bottom well of the driver door (the passenger door looked good). the floor pans and trunk pan will need at least spot repairs (full replacement is not necessary, IMO). The A-Pillars as they enter into the body look like the need a repair (driver side). They were rust covered on the passenger side and looked better. (Of course, once the carpet and everything else is removed for dipping, the true condition of the steel will be known)
2. The engine may need to have a new rear seal, given the location of the oil drips.
3. The door and window seals are poor and need to be replaced.
4. The paint job looks nice at 20 feet but closer you can see the imperfections. The car had a frugal restoration in the 1980's so an new paint job is in order.

WHO should buy this car?? Someone who is looking for a Hawk to restore. I think the car has a lot of potential and would make a great restoration project. (I have seen other cars older than this Hawk and in worse condition get fully restored) If any of you know someone who is looking for a restore-able Hawk, this car should be considered. I think that the owner could be bargained down about $7,500 to $8,500.

BobPalma
06-06-2017, 03:03 PM
:!: Post #31 sounds reasonable, Ted; a good conclusion for you.

You were concerned about the Climatizer and referenced it being below the dashboard on the transmission hump. Do you mean the parts were there?

Reason I ask is that the heater portion of the Climatizer is not where you would expect it; it's under the passenger side of the front seat. What little is seen up under the dash (if it is there) is the defroster, which is why it looks small, or at least smaller than a "regular" heater core.

Hopefully, someone with the wherewithal to do so will given this car the thorough restoration it deserves, because it does deserve it. :cool: BP

Indyted
06-06-2017, 03:50 PM
Thanks Bob. I did not check under the seat. I assumed it was just under the dash (there was a black vent hose that was there, unconnected).

At any rate, here is the path to the Craigslist ad:

https://grandrapids.craigslist.org/cto/6153193982.html (https://grandrapids.craigslist.org/cto/6153193982.html)

Indyted
06-07-2017, 08:26 AM
If any of you would like to see the car pictures I sent to Bob, send me a message.

4jc8z
06-07-2017, 10:19 AM
Michigan never put mileage on yearly registration certificates. Just a FYI.

Indyted
06-07-2017, 12:45 PM
This was a Missouri car. The registrations I saw were from Missouri up through the 1990's. The odometer readings listed and all below 20000.

wdills
06-07-2017, 03:37 PM
PM sent. I would love to see the more detailed photos.

Indyted
06-18-2017, 07:23 PM
I think I now want the car

unclemiltie
06-19-2017, 07:36 AM
This was a Missouri car. The registrations I saw were from Missouri up through the 1990's. The odometer readings listed and all below 20000.
If you provide some previous owners names then some of from May souring chapters may be able to give you some history on the car. Also the usage of salt varied some across the state

r1lark
06-19-2017, 07:42 AM
I think I now want the car

Ted, what changed your mind? Did you just decide that you wanted a challenge?

BobPalma
06-19-2017, 08:26 AM
I think I now want the car

:) Well, Ted; if you're still talking about the car that was the subject of your original post, you're pursuing it with your eyes open by virtue of all the input here. :woot:

'Nothing at all wrong with that; it is greatly preferred to pursue it under those circumstances / conditions than to have surprises / disappointments when you get it home.

The car has always been worth "doing," it just a question of who's gonna do it. If you like the car, why not you? :D :!: ;) :cool: BP

Indyted
06-20-2017, 03:37 PM
I now know that there are a couple of others that are looking at the car this week. So I will see what happens. I also was informed this morning of another '61 Hawk for sale that may be closer to what I am looking for.

So now my head is spinning. :eek:

50pete
06-24-2017, 05:16 PM
i looked at this car today, found that just about the entire trunk floor has been lined with thin aluminum sheet metal pop riveted in place then the everything was sprayed with some type of coating. when i looked at the area above the gas tank from underneath, i saw a few gobs of bondo hanging. the drivers side floor was the same way with the aluminum sheet metal pop riveted in & coated. the doors shut amazingly good though. the car drove ok, shifted good, od did work but the handle to disengage it is seized. it ran smooth but seemed to lack power.
i made my offer, it was declined & left it at that. just thought i might save somebody a road trip.

Pete