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studeclunker
10-06-2006, 03:37 PM
I have a four bbl on one of my '63 wagons. I would like to exchange the old AFB for a Holley. I've read a few people discussing the Edelbrock (forgive misspelling) clone. What's the advantage over say, the Holley. I like Holleys, but if the Edelbrock is better... well, I can be persuaded. Cost is a big factor in this. I'm just trying to get one of these Studeclunkers back into a Studebaker.

I hate the Strombergs and the Carter carbs are barely one notch above them. After six years dealing with leaking and unreliable rebuilds, the struggle with old worn out carbs has gotten a wee bit old. The best new carbs I've had experiance with are the Holleys.

Any suggestions?

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

sbca96
10-06-2006, 03:54 PM
The Edelbrock AFB is almost an exact copy of the Carter AFB, even down
to a square boss on the back where the mold USED to say "Carter". It
has a few slight changes, mostly in the metering rods. The top hole
on the Edelbrock uses the later style Carter, which is larger then a
Studebaker (or other) 60's Carter. My experience with Holley has not
been good, ending with a poorly running car, that is hard to start and
leaks gas all over the intake manifold. From the experts I spoke to,
it seems it was a power valve issue, and I needed some special gaskets.
A change to a salvage yard AFB solved all those problems. They are a
bolt on carb, needing no adjustment to RUN well. To run RIGHT, they
need some rejeting, though its a simple job with the metering rods.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/carb_tuning/

Supposedly, a correctly working Holley will make more power then an
Edelbrock, but the Edelbrock will allow you slam the hood and forget
about it - I prefer that option.;)

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

Dick Steinkamp
10-06-2006, 04:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96
My experience with Holley has not
been good, ending with a poorly running car


My experience is the opposite. 30,000 trouble free miles with the Holley 600 vacuum secondary carb on my '54...out of the box. Not much luck with the stock AFB on my '63 R1 Hawk. Never did run right even after rebuild.

I also like the easy jet change on the Holley and the sight gauge to set the float level.

My guess is that you would be happy with either a new Holley OR a new Edelbrock if it is jetted correctly and the proper CFM for the engine you are installing it on.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

CHAMP
10-06-2006, 05:47 PM
I've been running an Edelbrock for about twelve years and the only thing I've done to it is adjust idle mixture and idle speed. I beleive the Edelbrock is best for all around street driving and are pretty much trouble free. The Holley is better for performance but might be a little more tampermental. All said either one would probably serve you better than the old 50's and 60's carbs. Thats just my opinion for what its worth?

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

sbca96
10-06-2006, 05:52 PM
I did find a decent improvement over the salvage yard AFB when I went
to the Edelbrock AFB. The reason for this (and probably why your '63
didnt 'take' to the rebuild) is the throttle shafts wear and start to
leak, which gives the same idle/running problems as a bad carb base
gasket. I had a slight hestitation, which I thought was slop in the
rear end, since it would take a split second for the car to respond
when I gave it gas. Turned out to be the carb. The Edelbrock fixed
that problem entirely. They wear out just like anything else. I dont
like the fuel bowl design on the Holleys, and it was the leaking gas
that I disliked more then the starting/idling issues. But, then again
this was a used Holley .. so perhaps the bowls/cases warp with age?

Tom

Mike Van Veghten
10-06-2006, 10:34 PM
There's nothing wrong with either brand. They have a little different tuning methods, beside that...not much different.

As some have said, warped bases or warn throttle shaft bores will give most people fits...not realizing they have a warn out carburetor. "Oh, those "xxxxx" carburetors are junk because...on and on. When in fact, it's just warn out! That's a good thing with the Holley, the base can easily be replaced!

As for the carb size.....you'll get many different [u]"opinions"</u>....but the fact is a stock or mildly modified (unblown!) engine will work the best..."overall"...with a 500cfm carb. period.
With the correct tuneup (that is, properly jetted), a 289, by the numbers will work just fine with a 475cfm carb.!
there were a few 500cfm Holleys made...but finding one may be futile search.
The larger the carburetor, the softer the low speed will be. It's just a fact of thermo dynamics (physics).
Now if you have the cam, headwork, exhaust, gear ratio, etc., etc., the 600 or even bigger will also work. You have to have homogeneous (compatable) package of parts.

Mike

studeclunker
10-06-2006, 11:27 PM
Ok... thanks. I had to ask.:D:D:D(LOL)

I like Tom's option; 'slam the hood and forget about it'. EXACTLY what I'm looking for.

I agree entirely with you Mike. That's the problem with just about every Carter and Stromberg that I've come across. They're just plain worn out! Maybe back in 1962 to '64 they weren't bad. Now they're a pain in the... um, well, rear.

Performance isn't what I'm looking for. Unless one is referring to reliability. Speed, power, all that are for the kids. Just give me the power and reliability that the Studebaker 8s are known for. I'm just looking to put together a Stude that I can turn the key and drive to work without worrying.

I haven't even laid eyes on the 4bbl in my other wagon. Haven't even laid eyes on the car, for that matter! It came as a parts car for my Daytona wagon and I'm going to get it early next week. The carb will come off and get dumped into the parts bin. Probably to be dumped, period.

Thank you all for the input. I'll probably go with the Ed-clone.:D All I have to do is come up with the money...[:I]

By the by, does anyone know what the current price on a Edelbrock AFB?

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

sbca96
10-07-2006, 04:08 AM
$225 from SummitRacing.com for a 500 cfm.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL%2D1404&N=700+4294925239+400065+4294839063+115&autoview=sku

You can check the price at your local Pepboys also, thats where I got
my 600 cfm Edelbrock. I am pretty sure that Studebaker used a 600 or
650 cfm on the factory cars. At least thats what I had read in the
past. We have had this very same discussion on Racing Studebakers. I
put a 650 CFM Carter from a big Buick on a 259 and the car ran fine.
Dont know if it ran the best it could, but it still ran good. The 500
is now the cheaper carb anyway, and you wont have to worry about it
being too big. Back when I bought my Edelbrock, the 600 was cheaper
then the 500. I was also putting it on a 289, with extensive head
work done, and an R3 cam.:D

Tom

ROADRACELARK
10-07-2006, 09:42 AM
Ron,
For the trouble-free operation you're after, I would opt for the electric choke...sure is easier than that manual choke cable.:( Just a few xtra bucks...but it's worth it.;) Hope this helps.
Dan Miller

[img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
Road Racers turn left AND right.

PackardV8
10-07-2006, 08:04 PM
Greetings, All,

Please, everyone throwing away the junk Carter AFB and WCFB off your Studes, throw 'em my way. I am doing some restorations and am in need of cores to rebuild for them. E-mail me off list with what you have to donate. I'll pay shipping and something for your trouble.

thnx, jv.

PackardV8

studeclunker
10-08-2006, 12:24 AM
Packard, be careful what you ask for... I've got a lot of them.

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

Roscomacaw
10-09-2006, 12:44 AM
Auto lore aside, the market decides what's good and what's bad. I've heard Holley carbs are trouble. Yet if this is really true, how is it that they're still being built and sold???
Drill bits made of plastic could be marketed with all sorts of pluses![:0] You know, lighter weight, cheaper to manufacture, won't rust, etc., etc., etc.. BUT - if the damned things won't cut the metal, how long do you think they'll last in the marketplace???[}:)]
Holley's been around for ages. It takes a decent product to survive.

I've got a really tired WW on the Transtar. Thing is, the stupid carb doesn't know it's supposed to cause trouble. Things that don't cause me trouble tend to not get changed.[^]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

studeclunker
10-09-2006, 03:40 AM
Ok, Biggsey. If you say so, I'll try it.;) But it gets yanked if it doesn't behave!:(

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

sbca96
10-09-2006, 12:14 PM
If you look in any car magazine in their Carb Tech area, you will see
about 2 pages of Holley tips for fixing/tweeking, & about one paragraph
for the AFB (Carter/Edelbrock). Just FYI.;)

Tom

Dick Steinkamp
10-09-2006, 02:08 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

If you look in any car magazine in their Carb Tech area, you will see
about 2 pages of Holley tips for fixing/tweeking, & about one paragraph
for the AFB (Carter/Edelbrock). Just FYI.;)


I'm not sure what you are saying here. First of all, are there really some car magizines out there with a "Carb Tech" area? I subscribe to several, and rarely do any have articles on carbs these days...let alone an on going tech area. When they do have an article, you are correct...more deal with the Holley carb than any other.

If you are saying this is because the Holley is the most popular aftermarket 4 bbl carb out there, can be tuned in more ways to the specific engine and application, is the easiest to tune, and has the largest installed population, then I would agree.

If you are saying this is because they are one of the worst carbs out there and always are needing "fixing/tweaking", then you might look for another argument. Magazines rarely feature the worst of things...especially over several decades.

I think the AFB has also stood the test of time and is a fine carb. The fact that far more Holley's have been sold than AFB and AFB clones tells me a lot, however. The market generally sorts through the choices available and the "best" become the top sellers.

This is not to discourage anyone from using an AFB or AFB clone. Studebaker used the AFB in the last couple of years on their V8's and (if for no other reason) it's nice to stick with that heritage.


http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Roscomacaw
10-09-2006, 02:48 PM
Remember the photo I posted about a month ago that featured my friend's 60 Lark 2dr? I gave him a 385CFM Holley 4bbl that had been given to me some years prior. It was brand new but I never had call to use it and I just gave it to my friend because he'd given me so many Stude parts thru the years.
He had to rejet that thing to make it work right on his 289 but once done, it's a great-driving unit. I know firsthand how well it runs as I've driven it recently[^]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

sbca96
10-09-2006, 03:14 PM
Yes, I subscribe to both Car Craft, and Popular Hot Rodding. Both have
had feature articles on ALL the different brands. Holley carbs have
the most amount of space in each article I have read. A Holley carb
usually gives considerably more tuning ability then an AFB. This is both
a blessing and a curse. Another contant issue with Holleys is leaking
fuel. This is quite common as the fuel bowl gaskets are vertical. I'm
not attempting to pick a fight, only making simple fact known to a
person that asked a question. Holleys usually need constant attention,
and AFBs rarely need anything. My Avanti has never had any problems
in the last 10+ years I have had it. Only recently did I finally clean
the carb! It finally got an air filter too. Granted I havent driven
the car too much in the last 10 years, but sitting isnt good either.
Holleys tend to be popular since they potentially can get more power
from the engine they are on. I am not aware of how many of each brand
are sold, I wouldnt even know where to look. It is common knowledge
that AFB's are for slamming the hood, & Holleys are for winning races.

(though I am sure AFBs have won a race or two - isnt Ted running one
on the Stewed Tomato? His Chicken probably has a Holley)

Tom

CHAMP
10-09-2006, 03:41 PM
It doesn't matter whether you use a Holley or Eldelbrock as long as you use it on a Studebaker:D I love my Studebaker today![8D]

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

Mike
10-10-2006, 02:39 PM
The "Chicken Hawk" uses two R2 type AFB's; complete with the black plates riveted to the airhorns that say they are special sealed Avanti carbs.
Mike M.

kamzack
10-11-2006, 12:58 PM
For my 20 cents worth, both are good carbs in most sizes. the Weber manufactured, Carter AFB copied, Edelbrock labeled spread bore carb is a bolt on and run. They do not need hardly any adjusting at all. If you use a wcfb intake pattern, need the adapter plate to go to spread bore. When I worked in a Stude restoration shop we installed one in a customers' beautiful black Avanti. We had to use an aluminum spacer plate to clear linkage at the intake. That may have been peculiar to that Avanti, so it depends where the bellcrank swings. The man that owned the shop heard how it ran and sounded,so he wanted one put on all his V8s. They're foolproof and in the neighbor hood of $250.00. I've used Holley and AFB, both good, but setting floats and replacing power valves got bothersome. If you keep your foot out of it(what a joke,I never could) it'll give you better mileage than twice barrel. I would not hesitate to use one.
Kim

gordr
10-11-2006, 02:11 PM
FWIW, my GT Hawk came to me with a quadrajet [:0] installed on the WCFB-style manifold. The car had a nasty cyclical surge right at 30 mph.
I bought a brand new Edelbrock 1403 (500 CFM, electric choke), and installed it using a fiber spacer plate. It ran great, right out of the box. This year, I replaced the WCFB manifold with a modified manifold built by Studebaker John Lasseter. Carb continues to perform fine, but the car is getting Prestolite distributor disease.

I'd recommend the Edelbrock because: it fits, it works well, and it looks almost stock. I tend to avoid Holleys because of the fact that they rely on the integrity of the fuel bowl gasket to keep the fuel from leaking all over the manifold. Perhaps in a racing application, there could be few horsepower gained by using a Holley, but I don't want the maintenance headaches, thanks.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

studeclunker
10-12-2006, 11:00 PM
Well, I got the car home this morning. The carb is completely toast. It's been out in the weather for at least twenty years. The engine and carb are perfectly matched. Both are frozen as solid as granite. Looks like i'll try the Edelbrock.

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

bams50
10-13-2006, 09:05 PM
FWIW, I don't think any of the racecars I drove over 24 years used anything BUT Holley- from 2bbl. 500s to 850 double pumpers- from stock classes to 467 cu. in. BIG-buck engines- and have never known ONE to be trouble! We always carried spare power valves, bowl gaskets, and jets as we sometimes had to make quickie jet changes in the pits; never had leaks, don't recall ever using any spare bowl gaskets... we used to have to pull the carb and give it to tech so they could spec it, then we'd put it back together and stick it back on!

I'm not doubting those who say they've had trouble with Holleys- just adding my experience with, and respect for, Holley carbs!!

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1