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rkapteyn
05-09-2017, 09:39 AM
http://studebakerspeedster.blogspot.com/2008/12/studebakers-new-v-8.html

In this article which contains several mistakes it indicated that Studebaker put their V8 engine blocks outside to season.
I can not imagine field full of V8blocks laying for two years in the snow and heat.

Mike Sal
05-09-2017, 09:57 AM
In 1975 my engineering group took a tour of the International Harvester engine plant in Indianapolis. In a lot behind the foundry they had racks & racks of cast crankshafts and engine blocks setting out in the weather to "season". I don't know how long they let them set out before using them. They were all very rusty looking.
It was common to set sand cast aluminum water pump bodies outside to "season"....to allow oxidation to clog up any minute porosity within the castings so they wouldn't leak.
Mike Sal

2R5
05-09-2017, 10:01 AM
A friend of mine worked in the steel industry and he says the better the steel the faster it rusts .

56GH
05-09-2017, 10:26 AM
There are many errors in this article, but to "season" a cast iron block? What does that mean? Put oil on it like a skillet? ;)

What's happening metallurgically between roughly 0 and 100 degrees F in a South Bend field?? Not much happens to most cast irons until about 1000 degrees F.

Interesting!



http://studebakerspeedster.blogspot.com/2008/12/studebakers-new-v-8.html

In this article which contains several mistakes it indicated that Studebaker put their V8 engine blocks outside to season.
I can not imagine field full of V8blocks laying for two years in the snow and heat.

56GH
05-09-2017, 10:37 AM
In 1975 my engineering group took a tour of the International Harvester engine plant in Indianapolis. In a lot behind the foundry they had racks & racks of cast crankshafts and engine blocks setting out in the weather to "season". I don't know how long they let them set out before using them. They were all very rusty looking.
It was common to set sand cast aluminum water pump bodies outside to "season"....to allow oxidation to clog up any minute porosity within the castings so they wouldn't leak.
Mike Sal

There is evidence that very slight stress relief may be obtained by corrosion of the outer skin of iron castings where stresses build up in the as-cast layer.

There's an interesting article shedding some light on this subject in a rather old Naval Research Laboratory Report M3296 found at A0620556.pdf.

DEEPNHOCK
05-09-2017, 11:11 AM
That's it!
I am not lazy.... I am 'seasoning' my stuff.
Next time I get 'the look' :whome:, and that comment... I'll be ready!:!:

Commander Eddie
05-09-2017, 11:18 AM
I remember my dad telling us that Studebaker and Cadillac did this. We were originally from Indiana and I got the distinct impression that he knew what he was talking about and not just spreading a myth.

SScopelli
05-09-2017, 11:25 AM
I can not understand why leaving a casting outside would "Season" them. Any "Seasoning" would be machined off. Urban legend.

FYI: Does not look like the finished casted engines were stored outside.. And seriously doubt the engines would be stacked and then moved outside for "Seasoning."

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a609/R2Whistler/Misc/misc/Engines_zpschvhvuwx.jpg

Studebakercenteroforegon
05-09-2017, 11:31 AM
It's all about internal stress relief.
I retired from the aluminum die casting industry, and it was known that Singer let their sewing machine castings "relax" for a month or so before machining then.
I always wanted to get a Bonal Vibratory Stress Relief machine for our company but could never talk them in to it. We did "age" die castings with a few hour thermal cycle if they required precision machining.

WCP
05-09-2017, 12:35 PM
Looking at the stacked blocks pictured in post #8, I doubt if Studebaker worried about stress relaxation or "induced stress" in the lower layers.

jackb
05-09-2017, 12:46 PM
and in ancient folklore writings here and all over Studedom: where are they now ? ..........

6hk71400
05-09-2017, 01:48 PM
I have a seasoned block if anyone wants it. It is PS1405 for a 1957 Golden Hawk. No main bearing caps just the block with lifters. Come pick it up Free.

Bob Miles
Tucson AZ

Dwight FitzSimons
05-09-2017, 02:13 PM
In the 1964 model year the engine serial numbers were actually date codes of when the engine was assembled. For example, my '64 Daytona HT (259) had engine # VK328. That breaks down to V=259, K=October, 3=1963, 28=28th day. That is, this 259 engine was assembled on Oct. 28, 1963. The engine block has casting date code "10 24 S", which breaks down to October 24 1963. This block was cast on Oct. 24 and assembled on Oct. 28, four days later. That doesn't leave much time for aging of the cast iron, at least in this case. The closest I have seen between the casing date code and assembly date of 1964 engines is 2 days.

ddub
05-09-2017, 02:37 PM
The article footnotes the soure:
Engine Report, Studebaker V-8 by Classic Auto Restorer, February, 1997

I would want to see an earlier citation.

So were the '51 V-8s cast in '49 and seasoned outside some where before being finished and installed?

That aside, it is an interesting article and sums up Studebaker's problems well. I think his analysis of management blunders is right on.

jclary
05-09-2017, 03:57 PM
Any metal stuff stored outside for "Seasoning" must be some "bean counter's" excuse for not springing for building another warehouse.;)

Next time my wife complains about the unsightly clutter around my outbuildings...'I'm re-seasoning them.':!::D A prerequisite for "restoring.":rolleyes:

SScopelli
05-09-2017, 04:39 PM
In the 1964 model year the engine serial numbers were actually date codes of when the engine was assembled. For example, my '64 Daytona HT (259) had engine # VK328. That breaks down to V=259, K=October, 3=1963, 28=28th day. That is, this 259 engine was assembled on Oct. 28, 1963. The engine block has casting date code "10 24 S", which breaks down to October 24 1963. This block was cast on Oct. 24 and assembled on Oct. 28, four days later. That doesn't leave much time for aging of the cast iron, at least in this case. The closest I have seen between the casing date code and assembly date of 1964 engines is 2 days.

Your coding system assumes that only one engine was built a day, or the 100 engines built that day have the same engine ID..

I do not think the numbers past 'K' have any significance other than maybe the 328 engine built in October.

Ron Dame
05-09-2017, 05:38 PM
I've heard this rumor before, but can't imagine that Studebaker started casting V8 blocks in1949 waiting for them to season. Even afterwards, the inventory costs, the engineering changes, and other expenses makes this implausible for a company that kept running on a shoestring.

bezhawk
05-09-2017, 06:00 PM
That's it!
I am not lazy.... I am 'seasoning' my stuff.
Next time I get 'the look' :whome:, and that comment... I'll be ready!:!: I like tabasco on mine. Not too much, or it will run hot! :lol:

altair
05-09-2017, 06:33 PM
I know that Rolls Royce seasoned their engines for up to two years.

Dwight FitzSimons
05-09-2017, 06:42 PM
To SScopelli (#16) "Your coding system assumes that only one engine was built a day, or the 100 engines built that day have the same engine ID.. I do not think the numbers past 'K' have any significance other than maybe the 328 engine built in October."

That isn't my coding system, it was Studebaker's coding system. This isn't new information either; it has been published before in SDC. Thus, multiple engines built on one day in the 1964 model year would have the exact same serial number. Therefore, it isn't a true serial number (on '64s only). And, THE NUMBERS PAST THE "K" ARE THE YEAR AND DATE. These aren't theories or BS; they're correct.

-Dwight FitzSimons, Editor, Greater Virginia Chapter, SDC

swvalcon
05-09-2017, 07:18 PM
I had both a block and a 289 crank that was so well seasoned I had to throw them in the trash.

SScopelli
05-10-2017, 01:02 PM
To SScopelli (#16) "Your coding system assumes that only one engine was built a day, or the 100 engines built that day have the same engine ID.. I do not think the numbers past 'K' have any significance other than maybe the 328 engine built in October."

That isn't my coding system, it was Studebaker's coding system. This isn't new information either; it has been published before in SDC. Thus, multiple engines built on one day in the 1964 model year would have the exact same serial number. Therefore, it isn't a true serial number (on '64s only). And, THE NUMBERS PAST THE "K" ARE THE YEAR AND DATE. These aren't theories or BS; they're correct.

-Dwight FitzSimons, Editor, Greater Virginia Chapter, SDC

My Mistake.. Its also in the 62-64 Repair manual, that you are correct.

64V-K7
05-10-2017, 01:46 PM
My (New York) grandfather built a large boat in the 1930's. He told me that the Continental engine came from somewhere in New Jersey. When he went to order it, the foreman of the factory told him to go out in the yard and pick the rustiest block, because he wanted one that was well seasoned....

alaipairod
05-12-2017, 09:53 AM
My (New York) grandfather built a large boat in the 1930's. He told me that the Continental engine came from somewhere in New Jersey. When he went to order it, the foreman of the factory told him to go out in the yard and pick the rustiest block, because he wanted one that was well seasoned....
...........We did the same thing with our Continental engines used for racing 1/4 midgets..........Back in the day...........:D

8E45E
05-12-2017, 01:30 PM
Someone in my high school told me they did years ago. http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?45141-quot-Seasoned-quot-Blocks

Again, he never did tell me his source of information.

Craig

Caso wannabe
05-12-2017, 05:07 PM
Heat cycles are used to age whiskey in oak barrels 3 to 8 or more years.vibrations "age" wood,just listen to a pre war Martin guitar and listen to anything else new and you will see and hear a big difference.Too bad that bit of physics doesn't apply to the human body...

sgriggs
05-13-2017, 10:54 AM
Here is a Youtube video showing V8 engine production in South Bend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3JyOhDT2p4

This appears to be a Studebaker-produced film. Engine blocks go directly from the foundry to cleanup operations to the transfer line for machining. There is no mention of blocks being sent for "seasoning", and if such an expensive process was being followed for a supposed benefit to engine longevity, I would have expected this to be pointed out. And if you think about it, 2 years' production of V8 blocks would be tens of thousands of parts. That would take up an enormous amount of space and I would think would be well known and documented in photographs if it happened.

In another SDC forum thread on this subject, a poster from South Bend named R2Andrea who appears to have a lot of "insider" information from the last years of Stude production stated in post #17 that the block production process did not include a seasoning process:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?45141-quot-Seasoned-quot-Blocks

R2Andrea's post does mention the blocks going through an annealing process prior to machining, which is done to improve machinablity and may have produced some stress-relieving benefit. Annealing of cast iron requires bringing the temperature up to 1290-1400 deg F, which is over 10x the temperature differential that could be achieved by letting blocks experience winter/summer temperature cycling.

Scott Griggs
Louisville, KY

345 DeSoto
05-13-2017, 11:42 AM
To me, a "seasoned block" is a used block.

2moredoors
05-13-2017, 04:06 PM
I know that Rolls Royce seasoned their engines for up to two years.

I heard (read) the same thing about Packard but that was I believe in the 1920's or before. I did not hear or read about post war (WWII) Packards having seasoned blocks.

Lynn
05-13-2017, 09:25 PM
Well, this should be easy to either dispell or confirm.

SBC blocks all have date codes. Assume the same for Stude blocks?

Check your block casting date. Check your cars assembly date (we should have a fair number of original engine cars here, right?)

On SBC engines, not only is there a casting date that is cast into the block, there is an assy date stamped on the block. They are rarely more than a week apart. I had a Z/28 engine that was cast one day and assembled the next. I have seen a few that were cast and assembled the SAME DAY. Not normal, but it happened from time to time.

Tell me where the casting date on my 232 V8 is. 1953 Commander hard top. Be glad to add some real life data to the discussion.

tbredehoft
05-14-2017, 08:36 AM
Seasoning was a standard practice in the cast iron industry. I worked (in the early 1980s) machining cast iron crank cases for large natural gas compressors, these were at that time about 4 feet long, and 18 inches square. (not solid) It was standard practice to leave the raw casting outside for a couple of months, then again between operations of machining for 10 days or so. Talk was, at that time, that once upon a time, they'd be left outside over winter. By the time I retired, 2000, seasoning had been abandoned. they went on the machines within days of being delivered from the foundry. I suppose it's possible that the metallurgy of casing had changed over time.

Dwight FitzSimons
05-14-2017, 01:01 PM
To Lynn (#30) & others:
It has been known for years that Chevrolet, Pontiac, Chrysler, Packard, and other automobile manufacturers cast date codes into their major engine castings (block, heads, manifolds, etc.) in order to track problems in the foundry and identify the year of the part. Studebaker was no exception to this practice. Following are the casting date code locations for V8s:

Block: top, far rear (just forward of bellhousing) for 1953-64; at top front for 1951-2.
Heads: in center, under valve cover (often partly or fully machined off)
Intake manifold: on top rear (often underneath)
Exhaust & water manifolds: on back (inside) side
Bellhousing: on rear (near transmission mounting flange), either outside or inside

The casting date code is on a slightly raised area of the casting, about ½” tall by 2 ½” wide, with raised numbers and a letter,[1] (http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/#_ftn1) and the impressions of two screw heads (either between the letter & numbers [about WWII and earlier], or on the ends [later]).

The above is an excerpt from a 12-page Word document I wrote several years ago. I had researched actual casting date codes on many Studebaker engines and wrote it up. If anyone wants a copy let me know.
-Dwight FitzSimons, Editor, Greater Va. Chap.-SDC
[1] (http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/#_ftnref1) Date code consists of all numbers prior to mid-1920’s (e.g., “6 20 22”).

Dwight FitzSimons
05-16-2017, 01:51 PM
In my previous posting I have noticed that I did not explain the Studebaker casting date code itself (due to a brain lapse). The following should explain that:

On 1947-57 engines, the casting date codes are of the form: “year code, month, date”. Example: “L 7 29” = “1957 July 29”. For 1958—1964 the year code was placed after the month and date. Example: “12 6 R” = Dec. 6 1962 (an early 1963 engine).


YEAR CODE vs. YEAR—1947—1964


A

B

C

D

E

F

G

H

J

K

L

M

N

O

P

R

S

T



‘47

‘48

‘49

‘50

‘51

‘52

‘53

‘54

‘55

‘56

‘57

‘58

‘59

‘60

‘61

‘62

‘63

‘64

Lynn
05-16-2017, 07:25 PM
Thanks Dwight. I can't get to the engine compartment right now, as the 53 is up on a four post with a disabled car beneath it (waiting on the machine shop for parts). Once I get a chance, I will check the engine casting date against the build date of the car.