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spokejr
04-27-2017, 08:50 PM
Now that the new engine for my Avanti is going together with low compression pistons...ugh.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2017/04/25/new-gasoline-promises-lower-emissions-higher-mpg-and-cost-octane-society-of-automotive-engineers/100716174/

I'll bet the NEXT time I build an engine, fuels will be going back to low octane...now you know another reason why I don't buy lottery tickets.

Ken Buchanan

StudeRich
04-27-2017, 09:07 PM
Are they not staying with the Standard E-10 87 Reg., 89 (1/2 & 1/2) Mid Grade, and 92 or 93 Premium, that varies slightly in most Low altitude States, and a LOT in High Altitude? :ohmy: :confused:

Mark L
04-27-2017, 11:55 PM
68 years too late for the Commander OHV V8.

scottsewall
04-28-2017, 03:37 AM
I paid $6.99/gallon for super-premium 100 octane fuel a couple weeks back in the bay area for my Avanti.

jts359
04-28-2017, 08:07 AM
I heard yesterday that their is supposed to be a new ethanol free fuel for boats , Maybe this will transfer over to collector cars , Ed

GrumpyOne
04-28-2017, 10:02 AM
Are they not staying with the Standard E-10 87 Reg., 89 (1/2 & 1/2) Mid Grade, and 92 or 93 Premium, that varies slightly in most Low altitude States, and a LOT in High Altitude? :ohmy: :confused:


Haven't you heard???

There's a new sheriff in town who's clipped the EPA's wings not to mention that the new EPA administrator is car/fuel friendly…

colt45sa
04-28-2017, 11:47 AM
I heard yesterday that their is supposed to be a new ethanol free fuel for boats , Maybe this will transfer over to collector cars , Ed Gasoline with no ethanol has been around for quite some time now. Marathon refines it but it is sold at many locations without brand i.d. and is called 'Rec-90'. There are at least 7 places where I can buy it within a couple of miles of my house including a Sunoco station, a Shell station, and a couple of unbranded stations. It's mostly sold for boating use but many collector car owners have found it and use it.

voxnut
04-28-2017, 11:54 AM
Gasoline with no ethanol has been around for quite some time now. Marathon refines it but it is sold at many locations without brand i.d. and is called 'Rec-90'. There are at least 7 places where I can buy it within a couple of miles of my house including a Sunoco station, a Shell station, and a couple of unbranded stations. It's mostly sold for boating use but many collector car owners have found it and use it.

Unfortunately not in my neck of the woods...

spokejr
04-28-2017, 12:10 PM
Unfortunately not in my neck of the woods...

The State of Cali still has their old sheriff...the stupidity lingers on here and probably will for a long while...likely longer than I.

jts359
04-28-2017, 12:11 PM
Not around here unless you find racing fuel , Ed

E. Davis
04-28-2017, 01:17 PM
Non-ethanol gas is getting more prevalent here all the time. I think there is at least 4 stations selling it in Great Falls, Mt. I think you have to make your needs known and hassle them constantly to get it. Its available everywhere albeit at a cost, so that is no excuse except lack of demand. Car clubs, farmers and contractors with numerous small air cooled engines have demanded it in this area and the squeaky wheel seems to have gotten the grease once again.

64studeavanti
04-28-2017, 01:36 PM
Non ethanol is available at wawa and some others here on fl.

HOXXOH
04-28-2017, 01:47 PM
http://pure-gas.org/ for ethanol free stations
google 100 octane and your state or race gas for high octane locations.

Skip Lackie
04-28-2017, 04:57 PM
I'm sure non-ethanol gas is available in lots of places, and its availability may even be growing. But the fact remains that it is not available in the urban/suburban areas in which the majority of the population lives. The use of oxygenated fuels in areas that could not meet air quality standards was mandated by Congress more than 20 years ago, though the implementation details were left up to the EPA and could presumably be changed without Congressional action. And I know some people are able to buy aviation, boat, or recreational vehicle fuel for their vehicles -- but such use may or not be legal, depending on whether the federal highway use tax is charged and what kind of vehicle such fuel is put into.

As has been discussed before, it would be really nice if the govt would actually fund a study about whether oxygenated fuels make the air cleaner, and at what cost. But Congress has prohibited such a study -- they prefer to use lobbying money as a measure of goodness.

53k
04-28-2017, 06:08 PM
I have been buying pure gasoline at a Liberty station in Charles Town, WV for some years. It used to be $.20/gallon higher than 87 octane ethanol tainted, but recently went to $.30. I buy it for my small engine equipment and haven't tried it in my daily driver. One day when I was filling my gas cans a man pulled in behind me and filled his Jeep Cherokee with the pure gas. He said he got enough better gas mileage to make it worthwhile to drive 10 miles to the station and pay the extra cost.
I understand there are several stations in Winchester, VA (about 25 miles from me) selling regular and premium real gas, but I haven't checked them out.

Mike Van Veghten
04-28-2017, 07:10 PM
Why all the big deal about the ethanol (other than it rotting old rubber, and aluminum)?
An internal combustion engine does not run on the burning of gasoline. It runs on the burning of...oxygen. The gas/alcohol is just a method of lighting the air (oxygen).

Higher octane numbers are obviously a good thing in some circles, whether it's in "oxygenated" fuel or not is really not a big deal. The Indy Racing league runs on methanol, at least two classes of NHRA/IHRA drag racing run on...alcohol, lotsa street race cars run on alcohol.

Despite all the doomsayers, one just needs to understand the slightly different requirements of alcohol vs. standard gasoline. A richer mixture, a little higher compression ratio (not required at this point), a little higher ignition timing. We all have the capability of tuning around the way alcohol works in an engine.

The sky is far from falling ("oxygen"ated fuel wise) at this point.

Mike

Skip Lackie
04-30-2017, 10:39 AM
Mike-
I feel compelled to respond to your post as follows:

1. The oxygenated fuel mandate was added to the Clean Air Act in 1990 and was supported by the George H.W. Bush administration. The original idea for oxygenated fuels came from the chemical industry (not the EPA), which had come up with MTBE as fuel additive. Ethanol was included as an alternative to MTBE as a way to get the support of corn-belt legislators. It was the kind of political give-and-take that is commonplace in Congress, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. At the time, there was no empirical evidence that oxygenates reduced automotive emissions.

2. The preliminary evidence from the mid-1990s was that MTBE-laced gasoline did, in fact, help to reduce emissions. It’s a tough comparison to make, since factors like population shifts, improved engine-management technology, and other things (HOV lanes, etc) would all have an effect on overall air pollution and would have to be accounted for. If it hadn’t fouled water wells (something that the EPA warned might happen when Congress was considering the bill), MTBE would have been an almost perfect fuel additive. It didn’t cost much, a relatively small amount (<10%) had a big effect, and its effect on gas mileage was insignificant. And it didn’t seem to affect fuel system rubber parts (though it may not have been used for a long enough time for that to show up). Unfortunately, MTBE was a carcinogen, and enough gas was spilled on the ground to foul water wells all over the country, so Congress later banned it. However, the oxygenate mandate was left in place, leaving ethanol as the only other alternative available.

3. E10 gasoline reduces fuel mileage by about 4%, so it (in effect) raises the cost of driving.

4. As noted elsewhere, ethanol damages rubber fuel line components and promotes rust and sludge in the fuel systems of vehicles driven infrequently. Those of us with a bunch of old cars have to spend a lot of time replacing otherwise-good fuel system components, buying anti-ethanol additives, and monitoring fuel degradation. Ethanol-laced fuel even made the gas cap on my chain saw swell up to the degree that it can’t be used – so now I have a perfectly good chain saw that I can’t use.

5. Add to the above the fact that we don’t know if E10 even helps to clean up the air. The effect of ethanol is hard to know, since AFAIK, no one has been funded to do an objective, all-encompassing study of the true cost/benefit ratio. So (for example), even if ethanol-laced gas does reduce air pollution in some cities, is overall air quality nationwide improved, once the costs of the petroleum used to make the fertilizer, sow and harvest the corn, distill the ethanol, and transport the corn and the ethanol were included? Much of this petroleum is burned in rural areas, where air quality is still good – so the measurements there don’t get included in the equation.

6. We’ll probably never know. With MTBE now on the blacklist, the wand has been passed to the ethanol industry and the Congressional reps from the corn-belt states. For example, Archer Daniels Midland spends about $1.7B a year on lobbying, and contributes another $330M to politicians. Am I naïve in thinking that they get some influence in return? I don’t think any of us oppose paying for cleaner air – but we’re being forced to subsidize the ethanol industry for no KNOWN benefit.

fastjohnll
04-30-2017, 11:50 AM
Oxygen does not burn, it supports combustion but of itself it does not burn. This is firefighting 101.

Swifster
04-30-2017, 12:24 PM
The reason for possible octane increases are that engine designers are finding that with electronics, engines can run higher compression ratios . The problem is that they run far more efficiently with higher octane. The good is that high octane won't hurt older engines. The bad? Your gas prices will go up...

TWChamp
04-30-2017, 02:31 PM
Thanks Skip for writing all that. I have seen all the bad that ethanol does for many years. I was really surprised when a professor from a very liberal Minnesota college was on the news about 6 months ago and said ethanol was a mistake and actually does more harm than good.

spokejr
04-30-2017, 03:17 PM
Oxygen does not burn, it supports combustion but of itself it does not burn. This is firefighting 101.

John, in some ways you and Mike are both correct, a sort of chicken and the egg kinda thing. Watch Feynman's take on it, you need to hang in there until the 2nd minute for the punch line.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoJh6oYAXE

RadioRoy
04-30-2017, 03:18 PM
Occasionally you can get non alcoholic racing fuel here in California. The last time I looked, it was around $12 a gallon. :(

fastjohnll
04-30-2017, 07:01 PM
spoker----I was a fire fighter for more than 33 years and every book that I studied on the combustion process stated that oxygen does not burn of itself, but supports combustion. Mike stated oxygen burns and gasoline does not burn when just the opposite is true.

spokejr
04-30-2017, 10:18 PM
spoker----I was a fire fighter for more than 33 years and every book that I studied on the combustion process stated that oxygen does not burn of itself, but supports combustion. Mike stated oxygen burns and gasoline does not burn when just the opposite is true.

John, I agree. But you need both carbon and oxygen. With both in the right ratio, add enough heat...boom...it's a simple chemistry experiment with a possibly rather physical result. :o

fastjohnll
05-01-2017, 08:21 AM
And I agree with your last post.

Studerick64
05-01-2017, 10:02 AM
Regarding MTBE, first of all it easily migrates through fiberglass storage tanks as found at gas stations and boats. Secondly, it travels much faster through the ground than benzine and tainted a lot of underground water supplies. Thirdly, where it was added to the fuel supply asthma and other respiratory problems increased especially in cooler weather. I am a retired water quality worker and tried my best to get this back out of the fuel stock as I could see what damage this was doing. The municipality I worked for was involved in the Fleet Testing program so this means that they got free gasoline during the testing period. Getting free fuel offset their duty to protect the public welfare. Most of our vehicles spent a great deal of time idling, so the results were not a good source of data. Why was MTBE banned in Alaska before it was introduced to the lower forty states?

Skip Lackie
05-01-2017, 05:19 PM
Why was MTBE banned in Alaska before it was introduced to the lower forty states?

Air pollution is not a simple issue, from either an atmospheric physics or a legislative/legal point of view. Local conditions, statutory language, and both local and national politics all play a role. The 1970 Clean Air Act (CAA) and the 1990 and subsequent amendments all require the EPA to work with the states and localities to implement the Act. Maps showing the types of fuel now used in each of the states and various locations therein show more than a dozen different approaches. Whole books have been written to describe the tortured path of the air quality regulations, and I don't think many of us care anyway.

As I recall, the rather unique atmospheric conditions that exist in Fairbanks during the winter create an inversion that traps bad air close to the ground. Low-hanging ice fog (caused by automotive exhaust) has been a problem there since at least the 1950s. During the early 1990s, the EPA was struggling to develop approaches to implement the CAA amendments, and was meeting resistance from a number of states. MTBE was known to be "bad", but there was no consensus as to how bad. Given those unknowns, in 1993 Alaska petitioned the EPA to use ethanol instead of MTBE as an oxygenate. Later in the decade, New Jersey, Maine, and California also asked the EPA to let them opt out of the use of MTBE. Some did it after suffering the fouling of water wells, and some did it for other reasons. In 1999, an EPA scientific panel recommended that the use of MTBE in gasoline be phased out, and EPA agreed. It took a few more years before Congress eliminated the MTBE requirement.

GrumpyOne
05-02-2017, 12:17 AM
spoker----I was a fire fighter for more than 33 years and every book that I studied on the combustion process stated that oxygen does not burn of itself, but supports combustion. Mike stated oxygen burns and gasoline does not burn when just the opposite is true.

The combustion process does indeed consume gasoline AND oxygen using this basic formula. There are other considerations but this is the crux of the process…

2 C8H18 + 25 O2 → 16 CO2 + 18 H2O.

Pat Dilling
05-02-2017, 04:00 PM
I truly hope they bring back higher octane fuel. I would not have a problem paying 10-20 cents more per gallon if I could get 98-100 octane out of the pump. My 11-1 compression muscle car would love it.

Studerick64
05-02-2017, 05:03 PM
MTBE and underground fiberglass storage tanks. Every gas station has underground storage tanks, in California leaks from these tanks are not reported unless they are over 20 gallons a day! Yes, this will have an effect on your drinking water.

Ron Dame
05-02-2017, 06:24 PM
The BTUs come from the fuel, not oxygen. Otherwise, any fuel from gasoline to a drunkard's piss would offer the same BTUs. Mileage and performance decline, because ethanol has fewer BTUs per unit.


spoker----I was a fire fighter for more than 33 years and every book that I studied on the combustion process stated that oxygen does not burn of itself, but supports combustion. Mike stated oxygen burns and gasoline does not burn when just the opposite is true.

HOXXOH
05-03-2017, 01:47 AM
I truly hope they bring back higher octane fuel. I would not have a problem paying 10-20 cents more per gallon if I could get 98-100 octane out of the pump. My 11-1 compression muscle car would love it.

Try Watt Tosco Union 76, 2847 Watt Ave in Sacramento 916-489-7133 for 100 octane at the pump. It's a bit more than 10-20 cents extra.